Ep #99: Raising Boundary-Savvy Kids with Amy Armstrong

What if the next 30 minutes could change your relationship with your children and your other relationships in your life, and also help your children improve their relationships for the rest of their life? You’re going to want to come listen to this one because today we’re talking about boundaries.

Now my guest, Amy Armstrong, is a pioneer in the area of conflict resolution for families, businesses, schools. She founded the Center for Family Resolution in Columbus, Ohio, and uses coaching to break through entrenched polarization, power imbalances, and divisiveness. She works a lot with high conflict divorces and co-parenting relationships, but my gosh, the things that you pull from that, she can bring that into your home today.

How to set healthy boundaries with your children, whether they be like toddlers, right? Or teenagers, or if you’re starting to parent adult children, whatever that looks like. And then the other piece we talked about that I was so excited to talk about was how to help teach children how to have boundaries so that we don’t have children that are just saying no to everything, right? And we also teach our children to develop opinions and to develop a sense of identity. All of this stuff is in the conversation today and it is so good. You’re going to want to listen to this one. It’s coming up right after this.

Welcome to the Raising Healthy Kid Brains podcast, where moms and teachers come to learn all about kids’ brains, how they work, how they learn, how they grow, and simple tips and tricks for raising the most resilient, kind, smart, compassionate kids we can. All while having lots of grace and compassion for ourselves, because, you know what? We all really need and deserve that, too. I am your host, Amy Nielson, let’s get ready to start the show.

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Amy Nielson: Amy, I’m so excited to have you on the show and you have a fabulous name, of course. So we’re just going to have like the best conversation today. I’m sure of it.

Amy Armstrong: I love that, an Amy Club.

Amy Nielson: I know. Amy Clubs are the best. Okay, so I’m really excited about our conversation today because we’re going to be talking about boundaries, and I think this is such a tricky conversation. Like, how to have boundaries with our children, like to do that well where we’re trying to, I don’t know, meet all their emotional needs and all the things and we’re supposed to, all that, but having boundaries and then teaching children boundaries because it’s a skill that I feel like we’re just learning is so, so critical to develop. And we do that well when we start as children. Tell me like a little bit about you and then let’s get into it.

Amy Armstrong: Sure. It is truly my favorite topic. And I did it all wrong for 45 years. So I definitely learned the hard way and, you know, I can laugh now, but oh my gosh, Amy, it was so painful. It was so much heartache. Feeling like I couldn’t speak up because I was such a nice person and everyone knew me as being this nice person. And I didn’t know that there was room for boundaries and still be a kind, gentle, generous person.

Amy Nielson: I feel like you just said what’s in my journal. Like I’ve literally said this and I had people say to me as I’ve kind of gone through some life changes the last few years, you were just too nice. And I didn’t like that because I was like, but I, I am nice. That’s who I am. I like being nice. I like that about myself. Do I have to be not nice to be a good person or to be successful in relationships or whatever? Like, what does that even mean being too nice? So, everything you just said, okay, keep going.

Amy Armstrong: So I actually, you know, there’s one school of thought that’s about people pleasing, that is really the mental health challenge around our sense of worthiness and our sense of using our voice. My work in setting boundaries is great to help folks that are really stepping into their sense of worthiness. But it’s also really good for anyone who values gentleness, kindness, mutual respect, generosity, dignity, being nice, and who wants to be in the mix of that mutual respect.

And so Amy, where I struggled was that the women that I knew that set boundaries were bitches. They were so cold and prickly that I just wrote it off for myself. I was like, well, apparently nice girls don’t get to have boundaries. And what I found in the model that I created for my own sanity, was that when we flip the boundary script and declare what we are doing, instead of trying to tell someone else what to do, it’s an entirely different vibe.

And we can stay in that sense of fresh, warm, available energy. I call it yes energy. I’ll give you an example. I don’t know, you have a child, right? Who is making some kind of demand. They need you and maybe their concerns are legitimate. But you have to go to the bathroom, or you’ve got a pot of boiling water on the stove, or you’re driving and you don’t have a place to pull over.

When we declare what we will do, rather than what we won’t do, it literally registers as being more safe in our nervous system. Honey, I’ll pull over in two more exits. Honey, I can help you with that math problem or I can help you in the bathroom or I can hear your difficulty and I’m going to put the water over here to cool. I’ll be right there.

And so you’re never saying no. You’re saying, yes, I will do this. Or if someone says, I need you to meet me Saturday morning at 10:00 so we can do this, this, and this. And you already have plans at 10:00 Saturday morning. You can say, oh, at 10:00 Saturday morning, I already have plans. How’s two? You don’t say no, how dare you demand I give you my Saturday morning?

Amy Nielson: Or say yes and then hold resentment later because you’re like, but ahh, you know?

Amy Armstrong: If we say our yes, there’s nothing for them to push back on. And it doesn’t feel like we’re being mean or difficult. It feels very different.

Amy Nielson: That is so interesting. Okay, so here’s something I’ve been trying to teach my girls. I have been on a learning about boundaries journey the last like two and a half years. It’s been so, so empowering. And it’s so interesting because I feel like it’s actually so liberating, like you said, and it doesn’t mean you have to become a different person or not be nice.

So I was talking to my girls about this and I said, we like to play games in my family. We’re very into games. And I said, to me, it feels a little bit like you’re playing a game and they don’t know the rules. And it’s really hard to play a game when you don’t know the rules and you’re just playing and you’re just trying to do it, but you don’t know what the rules are. And I’m like, when you express…

Amy Armstrong: And they think they know the rules, but they don’t.

Amy Nielson: Well, they’re trying to figure them out by like doing stuff. And so if you can tell them like very kindly, these are the rules of the game. Like this is how it works. Not for you, but like this, you know, like you’re basically just telling them like what the rules are, then you find out very, very quickly if they’re someone you want to continue to play the game with because either they respect the rules and they play within the rules that you, you know, like they respect your boundaries, or they don’t, and then you can kind of decide what to do with the relationship.

So this is like the conversation I’m having with like my teenage girls, you know, as they’re trying to figure stuff out or whatever. But I’m like, boundaries are so good because they’re just so kind because you’re helping everyone know the rules for you to engage with you. These are my rules. For me, this is what I’m going to do. But I also love that you brought up this thing that I feel like I’ve learned about boundaries. That boundaries are not telling another person what to do. They’re saying what you will do. That’s the boundary, right? Did I get that right?

Amy Armstrong: I was working with a dad last week who was so frustrated that his son, we’ll call him 14, wouldn’t help with any of the cleanup after dinner. He would eat his two or three bites and leave for the night. And that was it and leave dad with all the cleanup. And so we talked for a little bit and I coached him through this and just thinking about some things. I mean, basically this was a dad that thought it really doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel much like a relationship when the child doesn’t contribute at all.

But the child wants food. And so coming up with a way for the child to contribute in between school and dinner made all the difference because then he could still scurry away after dinner and dad already had some time feeling like the child was contributing in the household.

So whether it’s walking the dog, whether it’s putting a basket of laundry away, whether it’s stopping by the store, doing some meal prep, it just made all the difference because then that dad could say, yeah, we’ll eat as soon as this is ready. And so there was a little bit of leverage there where he was really tapping into something that the child wanted, which was to eat.

So we need to set up our day. This goes for parents of children of all ages from babies to grown. We need to set up our day for success so that we’re creating the touch points where we have to, you know, work out our boundaries at times when we’re the most likely to be successful.

Amy Nielson: Planning ahead is like really helpful and knowing these things kind of ahead of time so you’re not getting to that frustration point. And I feel like children, it seems like typically, children are usually pretty good to follow the structure if they know what it is and they can plan for it. I feel like the frustration point is so much higher when there’s not like expectations or boundaries or structure around it. Yeah, they don’t like surprises.

When you’re like, all right, everyone, no one’s helped with dishes for the last five days. Today, you’re all going to sit here and we’re going to clean the house until it’s done or whatever. They don’t love that in my experience. But if there’s like a daily like, you know the rules, like everyone comes and helps with the dishes after dinner. That’s what we do. It’s part of what we do. You know, you just, you know, this is what happens, right? I feel like that helps. So I like your idea of planning it.

Amy Armstrong: And also having the right amount of choice. So Amy, when I’m working with a family that is in complete disarray, I’m thinking, do we have too many choices going on or not enough choices here?

Amy Nielson: Oh, interesting. Okay, tell me more.

Amy Armstrong: Okay. So let’s stick with the dishes after dinner. So if you say everybody needs to help with dishes. Some kids know what that means. For other kids, you have to say, somebody’s going to unload the dishwasher and somebody’s going to put all the pots and pans away. Or someone else is going to wipe off the table. And so you’re giving a very specific set of choices.

Sometimes choices, oh my gosh, I’ll never forget this one time. I have a very husky son and a very slight daughter. And my son was supposed to be cutting the grass, my daughter was supposed to be setting up Easter dinner. And they were both mad and grouchy. And as it turned out, my daughter wanted to go cut the grass and my son wanted to do the table. And it just never occurred to me to give them a choice. Who wants to do the outside work? Who wants to do the inside work?

So some choice is great. But if you say to a child, you need to help, they may not have any idea what you’re talking about. It’s too big and overwhelming. But if you make a demand to say it’s your turn to unload the dishwasher or your turn to vacuum, that doesn’t feel good either. So we’re looking for the choices that work for you, for your child, for your household.

For example, maybe Friday night’s game night, and that’s just a thing. And every Friday night, we do at least 90 minutes of game. But of course, we probably take turns. Who’s picking the game? Who’s dealing first? Are we sitting on the bed? Or are we sitting at the kitchen table? So these smaller choices give children agency within the boundaries that the adults set so that we have a sense of belonging in our home.

Amy Nielson: Yes. Oh, I love that so much. I love the way you put it too, the right amount of choice because I think that’s so, it actually feel like provides kids with safety and context and it reduces the amount of energy. I think for me, and this is like a phrase that’s become more common, but like decision fatigue, right? When you’re like trying to make so many decisions, there’s so many things to think about, right? We learn about this even in school like try to, you know, not give people too many choices because it’s so overwhelming. It’s so much work, right? Help, you know, like narrow it down.

But giving choice is so important because we want our kids to learn to make decisions and to feel comfortable and confident making decisions. Otherwise, do we have to go to college with them someday and make all their decisions for them the rest of their life? We don’t want that, right?

Amy Armstrong: Colleges don’t even talk to us.

Amy Nielson: We want them to start practicing making decisions and we can do that and give them like the right amount of space to do that in.

Amy Armstrong: Do you want to do your homework at the kitchen table or in your room? Do you want to have a friend over to do homework together? Or do you want to do it by yourself? I had these two boys, their dad was in a wheelchair and dad could do pretty well getting a lot of cleaning done. So he wanted to make sure he just gave the boys a couple little things every day when they got home from school. There were just a little something for them to do. And these boys were so – they just came across as so stubborn. And I’m like, guys, what?

And it finally came out that they felt like they had worked so hard at school all day. And they just want to come home and crash. And literally they were like, why can’t we just do chores on Saturday morning? And dad was like, I thought you would want Saturdays off. And it was just the reverse. They were happy to do something on Saturdays, but they wanted after school time off. And so just having conversations where there’s enough openness to say what will work for you in the context of your non-negotiables.

Amy Nielson: And isn’t that like a relationship skill that you need for the rest of your life, right? Because we all have our different things. We have our different needs and our different, I don’t know, funkiness we come with, right? And our different boundaries we have. And my gosh, we have to negotiate things that like work within both of our boundaries and, and so teaching them that skill is so valuable. I love that so much.

Amy Armstrong: And it makes our anxiety goes down once we do the work of getting clear of what is our boundary? What is our boundary? And so volume for, you know, when I was raising my three biological children, I actually didn’t mind noise and chaos. I’m kind of a high activity person. Their dad did not think that was fun. And so they could even learn that around mom, we can rough house a little more, we could be more loud. And when we’re with dad, we’re not. And they learn just like rules are different at school, rules are different with grandparents. Maybe over to friend’s house.

And so they learn what’s the boundary. It’s a big thing, Amy. People push back on this, but even between two parents, whether you’re in the same house or in two different homes, you do not have to have all the same rules. You should have the same safety rules. You should have the same, like if there’s medication, be on the same schedule or, you know, relatively same amount of sleep. But as far as in one house, they’re allowed to, you know, have friends over all the time and in another house they’re not. Or in one house they’re allowed to kind of make and leave messes and they just kind of get it put back together on the weekends. And in another house, you don’t leave a room without putting away what you just used. And they can do that.

Amy Nielson: And what’s so interesting about that as I’ve been kind of, my husband and I both are divorced and so we have kids getting to try out different things in different houses. And one of the things that I’ve kind of learned is that contrast can be a really, really helpful thing because you learn what you like and what you don’t like. And you kind of can pick and choose a little bit.

I feel like you’re getting more exposure and more contrast to learn from because contrast is such a good teacher. And then you can pick and choose from those things as you kind of decide what you’re going to make and create in your life based on results that you see in different things. So I actually think that that can be really valuable. And some of these things are going to be like important choices, you know, the important differences and some of them are like not a big deal at all and it’s just like differences in preference and you can kind of pick what you like. But I think contrast can be such a beautiful teacher.

Amy Armstrong: Well said. It’s like we learn what we like by what we don’t like sometimes.

Amy Nielson: Right.

Amy Armstrong: I think we can even give ourselves permission to change our boundaries day to day if we are clear. So if you come home from work, you’re done, you’re spent. You’ve answered all the questions you’re going to answer that day. You can say to your child, I am available for math homework until 8 p.m. But I’m going to need a little longer shower and a little earlier bed tonight. And you just say what you are available for. And then if it’s after 8:00 and somebody needs help, you say, sweetie, I’d be glad to get up at 6:00. My math brain is offline right now.

Amy Nielson: But it’s so powerful because it helps them learn this concept of fences, right? Which I think fences are so valuable. They’re so protective. They help us know where we can go, right? And they can be so valuable. And I think it’s been so interesting because I’m seeing like this with young – because I have kind of a wide range of children, right? And getting to see what it looks like with younger kids. And now I’m getting to raise like not only teenage but adult children, right? And that looks a little bit different too, which is like a different thing.

But it’s so interesting and really beautiful actually I think because when you can express it really clearly and just say, okay, so here’s my boundary around this. I am so happy to be able to do this for you. If you feel like you need more than this that I can currently offer, here’s some other options. I would love to give you some suggestions around how else you could get some of these other things and whatever.

And so you’re being supportive in a different way that maybe encourages them to kind of have to put in a little more effort or have to do something else. But they’re all like love and they’re all beautiful. And I think when you do it in that way and you feel – I love that you keep talking about, you’re clear and confident on your own boundaries. I think it feels safer to them. They just know that it’s coming from this place of confidence in you and where you’re at.

And so it’s received I think better than just saying like, I’ve already done enough for you. Like how could you be asking for more? You’re so entitled, you know? Right? And like the resentment we would feel otherwise, instead of it just being like, I love you so much, I’m going to do this. And if you need something outside of this, here’s some other suggestions I have. I don’t know. I feel like boundaries are so good for everyone.

Amy Armstrong: Or gives them the message that they can handle it. Like you actually don’t need me right now.

Amy Nielson: You’re going to be so good on your own. You can do this. Yeah. Amazing. Okay, let me ask you this question. All right? Because I feel like this is so good. I guess question one, and then I have another one. Question one, do children learn boundaries from us modeling them? So us doing this together, is that helping them learn how to have and hold healthy boundaries themselves?

Amy Armstrong: It certainly gives them vocabulary to try it on. I have kind of a funny story. I was so easygoing that no one bothered to ask my opinion on things. So sometimes kids need to be required to set boundaries. Like, I don’t know, you’re going to say tonight what we’re doing or you’re going to make the choice. So a lot of times we only think we need to really do our high-level parenting with children when we’re having trouble of some kind.

So I advocate that we can really bake it in always in our family that we’re running a democratic household where everyone gets to contribute and everyone gets to make decisions small or big. But they’re definitely going to learn that it’s okay to speak up if the parents do it well.

Unfortunately, and maybe this is what I see, Amy, because I work with a lot of really high conflict families, violence, coercive control, a lot of high conflict divorce situations. What I see a lot is that children are mostly learning how to cope. They’re learning how to stay safe while the adults around them are not managing their own boundaries and their own anxiety. And children learn defense mechanisms that are not necessarily healthy.

They may be very maladaptive. And sometimes they look fine when they’re not. But I would go so far as to say that all children should really be using their voice to make decisions in every family. And even when they look like they’re fine, they’re happy to go along, they still have some muscle to develop around being brave enough to say their opinion and their thoughts in a rational, emotionally regulated manner.

Amy Nielson: Oh, I think this is so important because I think when you get to adulthood and you have boundary issues, it’s because of some of these things. And I think this is a challenge that I struggled with where I didn’t learn to want things and I certainly didn’t learn to express want for things. That was not a thing that I was, I was I think kind of raised to not have those things.

And so I guess here’s the kind of the final question I’d like to end with around this is, how do we teach children to do boundaries? Like how do we help them in their little spaces? Because we teach kids to share and we teach kids to be so nice to everyone and to be friendly and all those things, which is good. But how do we teach them to learn to have and be able to express boundaries?

Amy Armstrong: One thing I did well, when my children were little, was I would ask them before they had a friend come over. Are there some toys you don’t want to share? Let’s put them up. Let’s take a quick look. If you have something that you just don’t want anyone else to play with, let’s make sure we put it up. So giving them opportunities to answer that question about what do you want? What do you need? What will make you happy? And giving them choices. Do you want to take a bath or a shower?

Do you want to take your bath tonight or in the morning? Do you want to eat, you know, green beans or roasted broccoli? So choices keep that child in touch with their own ideas where you’re completely neutral. So you’re helping them stay in touch that their opinions matter and that they have a voice to say them, rather than, we’ve all seen children that just end up saying no to everything because they are so longing for a sense of control.

Amy Nielson: Yes, or children that do the opposite and just kind of go along with everything. So I love that kind of idea of doing it ahead of time and saying, is there a toy or two specifically you don’t want to share? When people come over, we’re kind of sharing and this is how this works as a group. But we can pick something ahead of time to set aside separately. I love that. I think that is such a beautiful way to do that.

Another one, I feel like I’ve practiced. I’m going to, I want to implement that one. I haven’t tried that one yet. I love it. One I’ve done that’s a little bit different is I used to always just like hug my children when they were sad and like just needed comfort. And I’m such a like a physical touch person. I just want to snuggle them and hug them and like, you know, make all the sads go away or whatever. But I’ve learned that that’s not always what they want.

You know, I have one child who’s not as much of a physical touch person. And sometimes they don’t want a hug. That’s not what they need to feel supported in their feelings that they’re having. And so I’ve learned to ask, would you like a hug right now? Would that be helpful to you? And just giving them the option to say, yes, I need a hug or that’s not really what I need right now. And then I can just be like, okay, all right. That’s like all of my mothering instincts are telling me to hug you, but I’m going to stop and just give you the power. And I feel like them having that physical boundary to be able to say, I don’t want a hug right now. I don’t want touch right now or whatever giving them that power.

Amy Armstrong: Some kids want to be alone for a minute. And these are great plans to make ahead of time. For example, just dinner table conversation. What do you like when you’re sad? And what are some different things that we can offer each other when we’re sad? Space, to talk about it, to go for a walk, to hug? And then it just helps them give themselves permission to use some of those options when they’re in the heat of the moment. None of us can solve a problem in the heat of the moment.

Amy Nielson: Right? Our brains offline, frontal cortex is not thinking.

Amy Armstrong: But we can think about these things ahead of time in a casual setting when there’s no judgment attached to it, no high emotion attached to it. And then it makes it so normal to say, yeah, no, I’m going to go be by myself right now. Or I need to go play some music or I’m out of here and going for a walk. Or I just want the dog. I don’t want your hug. I want the dog.

Amy Nielson: And we’re like, okay, okay. Yes, I can do that. I’ll respect your boundaries. Yes. It is. It’s so good. And I I love that and I would even say sometimes we have a conversation around when I’ll say something like, what, you know, what do you need when you’re feeling sad or when you’re feeling, you know, emotions, right? And I’ll say, here’s some of the things I do, right? And like give them two or three things I do and say, what do you think about what would be helpful to you in that moment? And yeah, and just giving them.

But I love that planning ahead because we don’t always know what we need in the moment and our thinking is not all online when we’re in all the emotion. So. That is amazing. I have loved this conversation. I have takeaways for me to use. And like I said, I’ve been learning so much about boundaries and I love this idea, but I’ve taken away some things. So thank you for that. And I want to ask you, where can we go to learn more from you? For our listeners that are wanting to get more information or learn more about boundaries. How do we find you?

Amy Armstrong: So I wrote a parenting book a few years ago. Good general guidance that every parent should read and it’s called Realtime Parenting and that’s on Amazon. And then I run a TikTok channel for high conflict co-parenting. And I also have my LinkedIn account as well where lots of folks find me to do speaking.

Amy Nielson: Amazing. Well, we will get those links in the show notes because I am sure some of our listeners have been on, you know, different sides of the boundaries because there’s all the different kinds of boundary things I’ve learned about. And so we’ll just come and learn some more from you and it’ll be great.

Amy Armstrong: Thank you. This has been such a pleasure.

Amy Nielson: Thank you for coming on. I so appreciate it.

Amy Armstrong: Thank you too. Take care now.

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