Ep #68: When Your Kids Are Having a Hard Time: Strategies for Filling Their Emotional Bucket with Jeanne-Marie Paynel

She has a background in Montessori, conscious parenting, positive discipline and mindfulness. And we had the most amazing conversation about parenting today and how to connect before correcting. And specifically I thought this was interesting because she talked about how to help children connect with themselves and how important that was. It was a fantastic conversation. You’re going to want this one in your parenting pocket of tools. It’s coming up right after this.

Welcome to the Raising Healthy Kid Brains podcast where moms and teachers come to learn all about kids’ brains, how they work, how they learn, how they grow and simple tips and tricks for raising the most resilient, kind, smart, compassionate kids we can. All while having lots of grace and compassion for ourselves because you know what? We all really need and deserve that too. I am your host, Amy Nielson. Let’s get ready to start the show.

Amy: Jeanne-Marie, welcome to the show. I’m so happy to have you on today.

Jeanne-Marie: Well, thank you so much for having me.

Amy: Of course. And you have The Art of Parenting podcast, which sounds amazing. I love your title, by the way. And I am so excited to get to talk with you about this because you’re a parenting mentor and oh, my gosh. We all need one of those. I needed one of those a long time ago. I still need one now. I’ve been doing this for a long time, my eldest is 19. But I still have young kids and my goodness, gosh, sometimes you just want to talk stuff out and get help. We all need help. So I’m so excited to have you here today. And just tell me a little bit about how you got into what you do, how did you get to this place?

Jeanne-Marie: Well, it’s a long story so I will keep it short. But basically in my early 40s, I decided that life was meant to really follow your passion, which was to be with children. Up until then, I had been working in advertising, a graphic designer. I had kind of been dissuaded to go into teaching, all of that. So I followed my path as an adult then I became a mother. And there was a moment where we were living here in the United States, so I’m both French and American but I married a Frenchman. And we were contemplating going back to Europe.

And at that point, I realized I want to be doing something different. So if I’m going to move, I want to kind of sell myself as something else than the graphic designer that I had been. And so I looked into getting a Montessori degree, a Montessori education, because it’s something that had always fascinated me. I read one book of Dr. Maria Montessori when I was expecting my first one 27 years ago. And it really kind of was the permission to follow my child, to follow my instinct, to really parent the way I wanted to parent. And so I was fascinated by that.

And I went back to school at 43 to get a master’s in Montessori education. And my brain was just, poof, so many golden nuggets. And just so much wonderful, juicy information for parents that I wish I had had as a young parent. And I have been since then on a mission to share it with parents to really help them better understand their children because children go through so many phases of development. And as parents we don’t get an instruction manual. We’re just living our life and trying to just make ends meet and so forth. And there’s so much information that educators have, yet parents are the child’s first educator.

And so for me, it was really, I worked in the classroom for many years. But I kept on having parents asking me, “Why is my child so different with you in your environment than they are at home?” And that’s when I really felt parents want this information, are asking questions, let me be of service to the child but through their parents basically. So in a nutshell, that’s what I’ve been doing the 25 past years. And I just love it. Like you say, I have my podcast, The Art of Parenting.

I also have a school that I call The Parenting School that I really dive deep into positive discipline, into Montessori, into mindfulness, into the importance of self-care for parents, and so forth, so yes.

Amy: So many good things. Where to start. I love that so much. So let’s talk about coming from that amazing amount of experience that you’ve built as a mentor over the last 25 years. And then prior to that, your own experience as a parent and all the things you’ve learned. What would you share if you had just a few minutes with parents, what would you want our listener to hear as a parent, what would you say to them? What would be in your first two or three minute thing, what would you say?

Jeanne-Marie: As cliché as it may sound, I would say slow down. Go at your child’s pace. Go at your child’s pace. They are our teachers. They are in the present moment. They are divine little beings that are soaking in all of this goodness. And just slow down so that you can see the world through their eyes. Because to me that is the beauty of becoming a parent is you kind of get a reset and you get to kind of relive through their eyes. So it’s going to be different.

And for me, I always say to parents, “We are not here to be servants or to be teachers. We are here to guide our children.” So we’ve been on planet Earth a little longer than they have. They’re brand new on planet Earth. And we’re here to just show them around and to guide them and to follow their lead. Because that is one of the principles of Montessori education is that children, all of us are born with this curiosity and this need to learn and to master what we see going on. And so we’re just setting up the environment. We’re setting up our homes. We’re preparing ourselves.

We prepare ourselves to be in the presence of children and to be able to guide them. So in a few words, it’s, slow down, enjoy the journey. And take good care of yourself, because I think that is something as parents we tend to put aside when we become parents. Because we’re so focused on the well-being of our little one and we kind of fall to the wayside. But we can’t parent and we can’t be a nurturing presence if we’re operating from an empty cup. So that would be my kind of three big ones, yeah.

Amy: I love it. There are so many good things in there. So it made me think too. I love this idea, I guess I kind of envision, and maybe this is similar to what you’re saying as myself, as kind of a coach. So it’s kind of their game and I’m here to coach and guide. And so I love that aspect of it. But providing the tools and the invitations, I guess I would say to give them things to explore and learn. And because I think that they are so curious and so good at taking themselves into these different things if we provide access to those.

And have come at it with this attitude of excitement and engagement that models that for them. That this is so fun to go learn new things and explore and create and figure out and have relationships and all the things that we’re doing in life.

Jeanne-Marie: Exactly. But when I say slow down, I’m also wanting to just remind parents that children are satisfied with very little. You do not need to feel this obligation to constantly entertain them or come up with these silly activities and all this. Just nature is so amazing to them. Everything is brand new. So their brain is processing so much that I think it’s important that we keep things to a minimum and we simplify things for them so that they are able to really soak in everything that’s going on around them.

And we don’t need to add more and stimulate and all of that, do stimulate by being present, by speaking to them, by giving good language, vocabulary, taking them out in nature and experiencing the real world. But I feel like today’s parents, there is this obligation to kind of show the world what cool activity you’re doing or party theme or all this. And that’s putting a lot of pressure on parents, so just enjoy, just relax.

Amy: A deep breath. Yeah. So I think that’s so interesting. And I think some of us have different levels of what that takes out of us or different levels of energy. Or we have kids that maybe have different levels of that, that they want from us. So I love the idea of starting simple and just kind of going from there with what feels comfortable. How do you feel, this leads me to this question, how do you feel about boredom? So this is one that comes up a lot and people are like, “Is it okay to have your kids be bored or do we have to entertain them all the time?” That kind of question, what’s your advice on that?

Jeanne-Marie: So I say boredom is very, very healthy. This is where inspiration comes from. This is where our imagination grows from. Where we’ve become to be in this society where we constantly need to be entertained, even us adults. I mean, with the social media, with digital devices and all this, there’s this constant, constant stimulation. And we have to remember that our children’s brain is still developing at birth. They’re not fully developed. They’re still taking years for their brain to fully develop.

And for me, it’s just, let’s slow things down for them and let them be bored. Let them figure out what it is that they can do. And I think that that’s something that has come with the newer generations because I’m going to age myself, but as a child, I mean, yeah, I was bored. And you’d go out and play in the backyard and find sticks and stones and talk to the snails or whatever. That was fine. That was part of childhood.

And today there’s this pressure that we have to entertain them. And we give them these digital devices and all this. And I say, “Please don’t, let them be bored. Let them just play in dirt and develop their senses.” Because especially the young child is a sensorial learner, so they need those experiences of smell and touch and taste and sight and all of that from this magnificent world that we have. Not to be focused on a device that is kind of training their brain differently. And so yes, boredom, hooray for boredom. Let’s all be bored.

Amy: I love it. We have a policy at my house and I was recently engaged and I’m going to be having three new children join my family, which is so fun. And anyway, so we’ve had a longstanding thing with my children now, and now my new children that are coming in. We have a thing where if they come and they tell me they’re bored, I’m like, “I’m so excited because I can come up with something for you to do or you can come up with something for yourself. And if I come up with something for you to do, I’m going to have you come and sweep the floor. You get to come and bake with me”, whatever.

And so they’re like, “I’m not bored. I’m not bored at all. I’m going to go find something to do.” Anyways, it’s just kind of our standing joke. But just my way of encouraging them to go find, they know we have, here’s all the things you can go do and just go. And then they go and they do their pretend play and start creating. They’ll get out the blocks and all the dolls and create this elaborate dollhouse, whatever. It’s just so much fun. Anyway so that’s kind of how I do that. So I 100% agree with you.

And I think that’s where so many ideas and creativity come from is in those places where their brain isn’t busy and they have time to kind of create with it.

Jeanne-Marie: Exactly. And I would celebrate boredom. I like that you say, “Wow, that’s great. What are you going to do with that?” To me, that’s great. That means that you have free time to do whatever you want. So you get to choose, you get to create what you want, and it’s wonderful. And yes, and there’s choices of chores that you can do. And you’re more than welcome to do them or do other things. Because I do want chores and participating in the family to be something positive. I don’t want it to be a negative thing. So I do encourage that a lot, but yeah, boredom, hooray for boredom.

Amy: It’s good stuff. I love it. And sometimes they really just want to come and help me do chores. And so that’s fun too. We’re like, “Okay.” I have this cute little seven year old that just wants to come and do chores with me. I’m like, “Perfect, let’s come do chores, it’ll be fun.”

Jeanne-Marie Yes, that’s an age where they want to be doing what you’re doing so I highly encourage them. And it’s true that sometimes when a child says that, it could be also I just need connection. I just want to be with you. So there you can say, “Well that’s wonderful. I’m doing this.

You’re welcome to join me.” And so that there is that connection because sometimes we tend to say, “Well, go get busy somewhere else.” But sometimes it’s just they want to be with us, they want to be near us, they might. So let’s start prepping food or cleaning or gardening or whatever, invite them into what you’re doing.

Amy: I love that. So when they’re bored, they might be asking for connection time, keep open to that idea that maybe that’s what they’re requesting. I love that. So you said something else in here from what we were talking about, about connecting before you correct. Connect before you correct. I love that phrase. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Jeanne-Marie: So this really stems from this understanding that behavior is a form of communication. So oftentimes, ‘misbehavior’ annoys us and kind of activates our frustration or whatever. But if we can remember that first of all, we’re the adults in the room, so chill, relax, you’ve got this. Take a pause. Take a deep breath. Do what you need to do to self-regulate. And that the child just sometimes when they are having a hard time, it is that their brain, their right hemisphere is often offline. They’ve kind of, in positive discipline, we say flipped our lid.

Our prefrontal cortex, which is that part of the brain that helps us make decisions and know what the consequences might be. It’s kind of offline. So it’s really the emotional, the limbic system, that is there raw. And so they need to connect back to themselves first before we try to talk about a solution or correct or anything because they’re not available. So it’s important that we connect with ourselves because sometimes we might be offline because the situation is a little bit too much for us. So we connect and then we help them connect back to themselves.

And it is only when the child is calm and back in a normal state that we can talk about it, “Oh my goodness, you were very upset about that. How can we do this better next time?” So we’re taking the time to connect with them before getting into the correct behavior might have been.

Amy: Interesting, I love that.

Jeanne-Marie: Yeah, so it just means don’t try to fix things in the moment. Take a pause. Calm yourself. Let the child calm themselves. Be there for them. Have empathy for them. They’re going through some big emotions. I always tell parents, remind parents that children are never giving you a hard time. They are having a hard time. And it is really our role to help them, how can I help you? I’m here for you. Let’s work this out.

So, yeah, we’re connecting before ever correcting. And it also comes. I will add that it comes from this understanding that we all, you and I and everybody listening, we all need significance and belonging. And this is responsibility and love, if we want to call it. And so the child who is misbehaving or offline or however you want to call it, is oftentimes because they’re feeling a lack of significance and belonging. And so it is our role to try to see where that might be missing and to give them that significance or belonging.

Amy: Significance. I like everything you say and I’m like, “I have five more questions.” When I saw the connect before you correct, I have always, I guess thought of that in a connect with me. I’m connecting with them before I’m correcting with them and building my relationship with them. I don’t think I’d thought of it in a way of helping them connect with themselves. And that is such a beautiful thought.

And it brings me to what you’re talking about, the sense of belonging and significance. Because I’m not sure how familiar you are with Brené Brown’s work, but I loved her book where she talks about, you can never belong in a group until you belong to yourself and that idea. And so I love that idea of helping them reconnect with themselves before going into, how do we correct this? How do we work together towards solving this problem that you have? How do we fix this going forward? Anyway, it’s just beautiful, and I love it.

Jeanne-Marie: Yeah. And for me, we can help them do that also by making them aware that sometimes our body gives us signals that we are going to get upset. Our body is highly intelligent and we often have these signals ahead of time. We might get butterflies in our stomach or sweaty hands or something. Something is starting to activate our emotions. So if we can help children be aware of that ahead of time, we can help them self-regulate. And we can help them really be connected to their emotions and what they need and ask for what they need.

Because I think we have grown up in a society where we’re not always aware of our own emotions or how to help them and so forth. And sometimes it is in that moment of boredom where we can think about things like that, or instead of always going, going, going and shutting everything down. So these are amazing opportunities for us to help our children connect to their inner knowing.

Amy: Love this. So going further into that, when is that a good conversation to have? Because right in that moment I think we’re working on trying to get them to connect back to their bodies. So maybe we’re not saying, “What were your symptoms?” How would we have known beforehand? So when do you have that conversation? Is that just kind of a conversation you have in a moment of connection some other time where you’re saying, “What are some of the things that you notice in your body when you’re about to get upset?”

Jeanne-Marie: Yes, definitely. And that’s something that I actually work with parents in and create what I call a kind of a positive time out zone or a self-regulating place or such. So that maybe after the fact, and this might sound counterintuitive to many, but one of the most beautiful tools to help them connect is to offer a hug, is to offer to just hold them. Because sometimes they’re just having a difficult moment. And just to let them know that you love them no matter what, even when they’re having a rough time.

And it’s really, like you say in a moment of connection, maybe it’s in the car when you’re driving somewhere or on a walk or something. And you say, “I noticed the other day when you got upset with your brother, this and this happened. Do you remember a feeling in your body that told you, you were going to get upset?” So really having those conversations because they are very, very self-aware. When we have those conversations with them, they know it.

And I actually remember my son, one time he came home and I don’t know, he must have been about seven or eight. He was like, “Oh, mom, I just need to go run in the backyard.” I was like, “Okay, do what you need to do.” He was aware that there was something, that he had had something happen at school. He just needed to process it and he literally went around and ran around in circles and then calmed himself. So that’s why it’s so important to help them be aware that our body often gives us signals of what we need, and we need to listen to it.

Amy: This is so good. Do you think that there’s value in modeling that? So, we have a calm down space or something and we talk about calm down space for kids. I think sometimes, parents, adults need calm down time too. And so is there value in saying, for me, I know that one of the best things for me when I’m working out all the feelings is to go for a really good long bike ride. So I’ll be like, “I think I need a bike ride right now or something.”

Is there value in kind of talking about that and saying, “You know what? I’m having big feelings and I need to be able to get some of these out so that I can kind of come back calm and solve the problems that I have”, and whatever? Is there value in talking kind of, not overly talking but bringing some of that up occasionally with children as we’re working through our own stuff so they can see us modeling it?

Jeanne-Marie: 100%, they are absorbing everything. So if we model the benefit of paying attention to our own emotions to show them how we self-regulate. And I would be extremely mindful of how you do that to maybe not just sit down and take out your phone and start scrolling. But really do something that is going to wash away that emotion, and it could be just splashing cold water on your face, having a glass of water, like you, going for a bike ride. I often say, “I need to go for a walk.” So often time in nature is a wonderful calmer, but yes, definitely, model it.

And I think it’s very important, even with infants, to voice what we’re doing, to say what we’re doing. Because they’re absorbing all of that. And it’s also important in sharing what’s going on because oftentimes I know I have parents that often are kind of frustrated because they pick their children up from school or preschool and, “What did you do today?” And the child is like, “Nothing, I just played, nothing.” And so that we have to remember that young children are in the present moment. So what happened a few hours ago, it’s done, I’m here.

But if you want that interaction, why don’t you start telling them what you did during the day? “Oh my goodness, I missed you today. And I went to the market and then I went to work and this colleague of mine, he made me laugh so hard.” And just tell them stories so that there is this communication instead of just expecting them to share their day when, like I say, they’re in the present moment. But you can ask, “Did somebody make you laugh? Did somebody upset you? Did you color with the color red?” Whatever, ask specific questions and you’ll get a lot more.

Sorry, I went off track, but yes, about modeling emotion regulation, definitely. Definitely have that. And even if you want a kind of a calm down space for yourself in your home. I think it’s great. I know I have a chair where I usually sit and read or meditate. When I’m there, my family knows not to bother me. I’m in a moment of reflection or calming myself or whatever. And so let’s have that for our children as well.

Amy: I love that. I think it’s so valuable for them to see it and for us to be able to talk through it in a way that’s not putting too much of our burden on them or anything but just sharing that when I have a hard time and we do. And that we have emotions that go up and down and that it doesn’t have to look perfect all the time. Because then I think sometimes and with some of my older kids, I think, but I tried so hard to not get upset. Or it wasn’t even getting upset at them, but just to, I don’t know, I feel like we feel like we have to look like we have it all together all the time.

And so now I’m a little bit like, “Oh, gosh, I had a video that didn’t do as well as I hoped or this hard thing happened in my business or this thing was frustrating”, whatever. And so I just had to take a deep breath or I went for a bike ride. Or I’m trying to figure out this thing and anyway and just showing them that normal fluctuation is okay. So that they don’t feel if they’re having a bad day that they’re doing it wrong somehow or something like that.

Jeanne-Marie: Exactly. You are teaching them what it is to be human. It kind of goes back to what I was saying at the beginning is, we’re guiding them. We are guiding them on what it is to be human, to have emotions, to have good days, to have bad days. But how do we handle having a bad day? Do we give up and just throw it all away or do we say, “Okay, well I need to try something different”, and so forth. And then also it brings up the point too that when you are maybe super activated by your child’s behavior.

If they are safe, if they’re in an environment where they can be safe and you can walk away for a minute, you can do that too. You can say, “I really need a moment to take some deep breaths. I’ll be right back.” And you can just turn around and put your head out the window, whatever you need. But we need to remember to put that oxygen mask on our ourselves. So we can voice that too like, “Oh, my goodness, I’m having a difficult time handling the situation right now. Let me go think about it. I’ll be right back.” You’re not abandoning them. You’re not shaming them. You’re just saying out loud, “I need to regroup so that I can be here for you.”

Amy: Yes, I love it. Sometimes I’ll tell them, “I need some processing time. Give me just a minute. I just need a little bit of processing time.” And I think that’s so valuable. I want to go back, we’re almost out of time. This has been so good. I’m like, “Can we just chat?” But going back to this time, that we talked about helping them self-connect and come back into their brain before we kind of go into trying to resolve the issue together. What would be some of your top two or three suggestions?

And I know you mentioned hug, sometimes just hugging. I’ve found that some of my kids sometimes want to hug and sometimes they’re not ready for a hug yet. So I’ve found it very helpful. Sometimes I feel like I need a hug if my kid’s in distress and I just want to hug them and it makes me feel better. But sometimes I don’t think they’re quite ready. And so I’ve had to learn to just say, “Would you like a hug? I’m happy to just hold you for a minute and you’re welcome to be upset as long as you need to. And I can just be here. Or if you’re not ready for a hug, I can just sit by you and I’ll just be right here by you.”

And then my cute little nine year old will end up inching over. She’s too upset to hug me at first, and then she’ll start inching over and then just climb and just want to. So what are some of the maybe top two or three things that you would recommend for helping them kind of come back and connect in those moments where they’re very struggling with that?

Jeanne-Marie: Well, what you just said. Offering a hug or even saying, “Oh my goodness, I could really use a hug.” But never, ever imposing yourself on them. It is, we need to have that respect and that body autonomy and so forth. So if they say no, you say, “Oh, I understand, but I’m right here if you need one.” And that’s it. So that to me is the number one tool. The other one that for me is important is to kind of have ongoing moments where you can have special time one-on-one with your child.

And I know this can be hard, especially when we have multiple children, if we’re a stay at home parent or if we’re full-time working parents, that can be difficult. And I can hear parents go, “Another thing to put on my to-do list.” But please see it as a time for yourself as well, because it fills up their emotional bucket. And it’s that connection. That’s what they’re longing for. They just want to be connected. They want to know that they are loved. They want to trust the world that they’ve been born into.

So it’s really important for us to make that a priority, to have that on the calendar maybe if you can, once a week, if you can’t, every other week, once a month, whatever. But that they know that there is that special time. So that when there is sometimes a difficult moment, we can remind them, “You’re wanting to have just time alone with mom or time alone with dad. And remember, we’re going to go explore the dinosaur pit or the zoo”, or whatever. And it can be also, it doesn’t have to be a big all day thing. It can just be a 20 minute walk in the neighborhood or go see another park.

But it’s letting them know that they are the most important person on planet Earth. And to me that really helps them calm down and to remember that they are, they’re going to have that time. And then the other thing is really creating a space for them but not creating it for them, but with them. So when we have that conversation about where do you feel it in your body and such? Ask them what would make you feel better. What do you think would help you calm down? So it might be that special teddy bear or it might be a coloring book or it might be something that they like to listen to or a special blanket.

And then set it up in an area that they choose, that you choose together, that they can name. It can be my chill out zone. It can be my spaceship, whatever they want. So that you can remind them that that is there for them. And so they’ve chosen what is in there to calm them and you can just offer it. It’s never ever used as a punitive timeout. It’s really a place to kind of reconnect with ourselves, to be able to take those deep breaths, to meditate, to close our eyes, whatever we need to do to feel good.

Amy: It’s so good. I love naming the space because my kids would have so much fun with that. And I love that it’s not a place that’s a punitive place. It’s a place of supporting you and helping you resolve the things that are hard for you. I love that idea. I grew up in a family of 12 children and my parents would still somehow find time to spend time with us not really often, but we would get it occasionally. And it was just so amazing. And it’s tricky, I’m a single mom right now with five kids and

it’s hard. But I find, even sometimes, some of my best time is in the car. I get to spend a lot of time carpooling and driving this kid to dance or this kid to swim or whatever. And I think sometimes if that’s what you have, then make the most of it. And can we turn off the radio or turn it on and do a silly song and karaoke together or whatever? But can we listen and talk and have connection even during those times when we’re just driving back and forth? I think sometimes those have been some of my best connection moments on occasion and then certainly planning fun things too because they love that for sure.

Jeanne-Marie: And that’s actually something that, I mean, I’m going to put on my mentoring hat with you, five children. Have you heard of doing family meetings?

Amy: Yes.

Jeanne-Marie: Okay. And do you do those with your children?

Amy: So we have not done any recently, but I love the idea and allowing them to each have their time to share. In the past I have and they get to come and talk about the things that are important to them that week. And they always look forward to coming up with something that they can tell everybody about, that’s their thing and we get to put it on the calendar and schedule it and talk about it.

Jeanne-Marie: Because that’s really great connection time. Especially as a single parent, it’s your opportunity to have them all together and really be able to connect and come up with solutions and whatever’s going on. So that’s wonderful.

Amy: Yes, you’re inspiring me. I got free mentoring today, this is amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. This is just an absolute pleasure to talk to you. And how do I send our listeners to you? Because I am confident that they’re going to want to come find you and get to learn more from you.

Jeanne-Marie: Yes. Well, yeah, I’m at yourparentingmentor.com. So yourparentingmentor.com. And like I mentioned, I have The Parenting School that is my course where I do mentoring every week. We have Zoom calls together. And that’s kind of my happy place to be able to support the parents. And then also of course, my podcast The Art of Parenting.

Amy: Amazing. Amazing. I’m going to go follow you right now. It’s amazing. Thank you so much for coming on, I appreciate it.

Jeanne-Marie: Thank you so much, Amy, thank you.

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