Ep #79: Experiential Learning: Reflect, Connect, and Grow with Bryn Lottig

A group of first graders unexpectedly ended up at a mom’s house in Wisconsin, and she intentionally let them go out onto the fish pond and fall through the ice. There’s a reason this story didn’t make it in the news, and it’s actually a very interesting story, and I’m very curious what you’ll think about it when you hear it. My guest today, Bryn Lottig, and I had a fascinating conversation about the experiential learning cycle and this pattern that she teaches of reflection, connection and growth.

She also talks about the importance of autonomy, a healthy choice and healthy risk, and that the way that we help children manage stress is to make it predictable, moderate and controlled. And when we can do that, it keeps them out of fight or flight. It is an absolutely fascinating conversation. I hope you enjoy it. It’s coming up right after this.

Welcome to the Raising Healthy Kid Brains podcast where moms and teachers come to learn all about kids’ brains, how they work, how they learn, how they grow and simple tips and tricks for raising the most resilient, kind, smart, compassionate kids we can. All while having lots of grace and compassion for ourselves because you know what? We all really need and deserve that too. I am your host, Amy Nielson. Let’s get ready to start the show.

Amy: Bryn, welcome to the show. I’m so happy to have you on today.

Bryn: Well, I’m so happy to be here, Amy, thank you.

Amy: This is going to be so good. Okay, so I’m a little bit obsessed with the outdoors. And I’m so excited about what we’re going to talk about today because I think it’s so healthy and it’s the season and I need sunshine. But before we get into all of that goodness that I can’t wait to talk about, I always like to just learn a little bit about you, how you got to where you are, why you do what you do. Can you just give us a little brief intro to you and why this matters.

Bryn: Yeah, I went to college and like all kind of lost college students, I changed my major and didn’t know what to do with my life. And when I was going through this period of indecision, I attempted to find myself out on an outward bound trip. And so, I did a 15 day backpacking and whitewater rafting trip in Colorado and it set me off on this trajectory for immersive wilderness experiences that helped me connect to myself. It helped me connect to other people and it helped me connect to nature.

And I decided to become an educator and using the wilderness or adventure as a medium to teach character development. And I’ve been fortunate enough to travel around the world and to lead youth and adults on canoeing, kayaking, backpacking trips, using a challenge course with low ropes, high ropes and all kinds of things just to help people connect with themselves, with others and with nature.

Amy: Okay, I want to be besties first of all and that sounds so amazing. And I get the college thing. I have a kiddo who’s getting ready to start college. She’s graduating in a couple weeks and it’s so like, “Oh, what am I going to do?” So yes, I relate to several of those things. But I’m fascinated, so you take these outdoor adventures and use them to kind of help build character skills. And then you wrote a book, right?

Bryn: I did yes. And so, the book really blends kind of my personal story. So, a little bit of a memoire-esque, into recommendations for working with the next generation. So, using skills that I feel I kind of stumbled upon by happenstance. And turning it into either a formula or a recipe to really be intentional and leverage your time with the next generation if you’re working with youth. But it really kind of works with adults also. And just to maximize the benefits of doing intentional things in community, working with groups and the outdoors.

Amy: Okay, so, I’m so excited. We’re going to get into it. It’s going to be so fun. So, here’s kind of what I’m thinking for our conversation. I want to talk through why some of that’s so important and how this system of learning this and outdoors, how that’s such a good environment for teaching some of this stuff, how that works. And then after we kind of go through that, I’m curious because so many of our listeners are working with young children. What could that look like working with young children?

How could that look like in a classroom situation? What could that look like in a family and what we’re doing with our kids on the weekend or over the summer, which is coming? So maybe let’s talk about that. So, I want to hear what are these things that we’re teaching in the outdoors. And you talked about community and growth and getting in touch with yourself, why does that matter?

And then maybe we can move into how does working outdoors and these activities help with that? That’s a lot. Let’s start with, why, yeah, why does this stuff matter? Why does it matter, I guess to be connected with yourself, how does that bring you value?

Bryn: I mean, I would say kids these days, but kids my days too. I think that it’s really easy in our current culture with so much stimulation and easy or cheap dopamine that is accessible. That people are not well connected with themselves because they don’t ever have to be alone with themselves. I even think about how in the shower is kind of the only time that I’m not consuming some kind of media.

And even then I find my kids, my children, my biological children are 10 and 12, and that they’re listening to music all of the time. And so, they’re not even sitting alone with their thoughts or really connecting and debriefing things. But the most important thing that I think that I have learned through my studies and my experience is really this model that is called the experiential learning cycle. And the experiential learning cycle basically is that we don’t learn from an experience. We learn from reflecting on that experience.

And so, the cycle is to have some sort of active experience and then reflect, connect it to other areas of your life and then grow in an intentional way. And a lot of my personal message is around how I grew up in a substance abuse home. And statistically I am much more likely to be an addict, but I’m not. And a lot of that is because I reflected on what happened. I found ways to connect it to other areas of my life and I grew in a very intentional way. And I wasn’t just repeating patterns that were shown to me because it was the path of least resistance.

But oftentimes if you just follow these patterns that have been modeled, then you’re much more likely to end up that statistically probable way. And so, for me, I was constantly evaluating these experiences that I was having and then connecting them to other areas and sort of mentally mapping, hey, what went well this time, what did not go well and how do I want to change it the next time I’m in a similar situation? And that is a process that I teach whenever I’m with students outside.

And so, whether it is a simple team building activity where we are maybe tossing items back and forth around the circle, juggling per se as a group, we will stop and we’ll say, “Hey, what just happened? Why did that happen and what are you going to do about it moving forward? So, are you going to repeat the process? Are you going to change it?” What do we want to talk about as a group to make sure that we’re successful? So, what are some of our hidden assumptions? What are some of our group goals?

And really sitting with that debrief process and exploring how to be successful together as a group, but then maybe what is our individual role in that group. And the reason that I like doing it in the outdoors is that outside kind of levels the playing field. It takes away a lot of those creature comforts that could maybe give somebody else an advantage and outside, especially in an immersive environment that is not normal, it puts everybody on the same plane. And so, if I take kids from an urban environment and I bring them into the woods, all of them are [crosstalk].

Amy: It kind of breaks that pattern. It’s like a pattern break so they can kind of get out of their norm and just kind of be ready to do something. I love that. I am just obsessing over this system that you have, this cycle that’s the reflect, connect and grow. And what I love about it is I think it is just such a growth mindset kind of thing. Everything that we do, if we approach it this way, then it doesn’t matter what happens to us because we can’t predict that. And I think our brains, we know our brains hate uncertainty, they just can’t stand it.

And so, when these things come and it’s stressful and we know we have so many kids working with anxiety and struggling with that. I love that you’re teaching them this pattern of that’s going to happen but here’s what we do. We’re going to reflect. We’re going to connect this with what else we do know, because we do know some stuff. We’ve done some stuff before and we can connect that and then keep growing so then the next time the sudden unexpected things, I just, I love that.

And it’s actually fascinating because, as I’m teaching seminars and things and helping people teach kids how to read. It’s actually kind of similar to what we’re doing with reading when we’re having kids try to connect and reflect and learn from what they’re reading and stuff. And so, our brains are so cool how these things kind of work together. It’s a little bit different, but it’s kind of really the same and it’s kind of amazing.

Bryn: Yeah. When I first started working with adolescents, I didn’t love middle school specifically, seventh grade. I always felt like they were really hormonal and they didn’t know if they liked themselves, much less anybody else and they’re testing boundaries and all kinds of stuff but now I love middle school. I love middle school because their brains are so plastic. And not since they were toddlers have they had that much growth and development. So, I’m sort of this armchair neuroscience enthusiast.

And I love thinking about what is happening in the brain. And it’s building these new synapses, these new connections and enforcing that growth. And so, A growth mindset is a big thing of mine. And just getting this muscle memory for our experiences and finding comfort in being uncomfortable is something that our society doesn’t kind of ever really do. We are so advanced with thermostats and technical clothing that we never even have to be cold anymore or even hot with air conditioning and fans.

And so just how do you find comfort or just peace in being uncomfortable? And so, teaching that to kids is so important, because if they can learn it on a physical level, to connect it to an emotional and even spiritual level, it’s so transferable and important life skills.

Amy: Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes, this is so good. And I love that you talk about it, even our thermostat, we just never have to be uncomfortable. And parents, I think, have more ability to make our kids comfortable than we’ve ever had before. And we want to because we’re parents, and we love these kids. And when they’re in distress, we’re in distress and we want to fix it. And so, when they’re upset about, they forgot their thing and they need it for school or all the time, if they’re having issues with friends or if they’re struggling with all the things.

And we’re always reaching out to help, which is parenting and we’re going to keep doing it. And there’s levels and boundaries and all that stuff. But I think you’re so right. They get used to being comfortable, I think we get used to being comfortable too. And so, finding ways to make ourselves comfortable in a healthy way, that’s a growth way is so valuable. And I look at that as I’m helping some of our teachers start businesses and that’s uncomfortable. They’re doing some things they’ve never done before, or helping kids learn to read. And there’s some parts of that, that can be a little uncomfortable or all these things.

And it’s okay to be uncomfortable, that’s okay. That gives us information about some things that we can work on and do and I love it so much. And I think when I’m working with my own kids too, once they realize it’s okay to be uncomfortable, it’s not fun. We’re not like, “Yeah, we’re uncomfortable.” But once you get used to it then, oh, my gosh, the peace you have going through life because you’re like, “I know how to be uncomfortable.” This is so good.

Bryn: And then there’s patterns of stress and learning anything new is uncomfortable. But if you can make it predictable, moderate and controlled then you don’t go into that fight or flight response. So, it’s when stress is unpredictable, if you don’t know when the end is, they can’t access their higher level reasoning. And even adolescents, it’s the last part of their brain that’s going to develop and become accessible. But by teaching anything, by learning anything, to make it predictable, moderate and controlled, that gives us all the most success.

So, whether we’re parents or whether we’re entrepreneurs or whether we think about ourselves as kids, that’s how we create these successful patterns. I love the things you said and I can go down a million different directions with it because it’s so interesting. My oldest is dyslexic and so I’m a huge passionate for reading interventions and how to read and we learn to read and then we read to learn and how important that is. But yes, as a parent, creating opportunities for autonomy and choice.

And if our kids don’t have autonomy and choice, educators in their districts don’t have autonomy and choice, they’re going to push boundaries. And so much about who we are as individuals requires autonomy and choice but within safe confines. And there’s resentment and stuff so your kids, if we’re so busy making things comfortable and easy for ourselves as parents, our kids are going to push those boundaries. Well, if we pick out everything that they eat and everything that they wear and everything that they do, they’re going to start acting out because they haven’t had any autonomy and choice.

And sometimes I see it in my kids, their day at school is so structured that they act out at home because I’m a safe grownup for them to push back against. And I’m like, “Why are you using all your good behavior on your teacher? They don’t love you as much as I do.” Which they might, but.

Amy: I’m always glad they’re nice to their teachers and I think that’s great. And sometimes they come home and they’re having, yeah, you’re a safe person and a safe space to let out whatever feelings are built up. And I’m thinking, okay, deep breaths, I know you love me. This is a safe space. This is good. And they’re pretty good at expressing it, which makes it not get so big, which is good.

But I was at a field trip last week with one of my kids and as they’re giving the instructions to all the children and we’re going to a park and there’s rocks, and they’re giving the instructions of where you can play and where you can’t play. And so, one of the spaces, it was, if you go up this hill, there’s a road on the other side and so we can’t let anyone go up there. And then there were rocks and there’s rocks [inaudible], which they’re boulders. And they’re the most fun thing ever. And so, they’re like, “You can’t play on these because you could fall and get hurt.”

And so, I’m just curious as where you work with children outdoors there are places where we have to have the safe confines. Do you have an opinion around trying to manage that, the balance between keeping this very large group of first graders safe, but then also giving them space to explore and have boundaries and to have small failures that are going to not be getting hit by a car?

Bryn: So, they absolutely need opportunities to take risk, they need them and their brain needs them. And risk taking behavior is very, very healthy. And again, we don’t learn how to ride a bike by being able to ride the bike. We learned how to ride the bike by falling, by tipping over, by learning what not to do. And so healthy risk, there’s a difference between healthy risk and unhealthy risk. And certainly, playing hopscotch on the highway is unhealthy risk but they need opportunities to climb on boulders, they do.

And so, there’s this fine line of, okay, if I am being contracted by the school, if I am working in my educator position, what is the school’s liability and what are these things that I’m allowed to do? Versus as a parent, what am I willing to do with my own biological kids in my own home and not on school property and stuff like that. But I am much more comfortable with risk because I am confident in my ability to bring it back.

And what I notice with some parents and educators is that they’re not confident in what would happen if somebody fell off a rock and broke their arm, what would they do? And so, some of it is kind of a thought exercise for parents and educators and coming up with a risk management plan. So, it’s okay, when something bad happens, it’s that reflect on what and connect it to something else and grow, it’s the reflect, connect, grow sequence all over again.

And the more opportunities you explore, even in that intellectual thought process, a thought exercise or exploring. For me, I am a lifeguard. I have my wilderness first aid, my wilderness first responder. I’ve led a lot of things, and so I’m comfortable and confident in my ability to manage that risk. So, I let the risk go closer to the edges because my edges are maybe a little bit farther out than a regular classroom teacher. And it’s the same when I debrief an activity. I don’t like telling kids what they should learn from an activity.

And this is going off a little bit, but in my book I have a lot of different activities to practice certain skills. And I say that experiential education, which is what I do, is the difference between standing in front of a group of kids and telling them that they should be good friends. Versus creating a scenario where they get to practice being good friends and then reflect on it and evaluate it and debrief it and then become intrinsically motivated to do that on their own.

And a lot of educators that I see are very uncomfortable with leading a debrief of those type of conversations because they don’t know where it’s going to go with the kids and their ability to bring it back. And so just like with risk, I’m confident in my ability to manage that risk. And with debriefing big conversations with big feelings, I’m confident in my ability to bring it back around as a group. And so, we do lean into having these talks about character development and what does trust mean and what is risk.

And so, I actually brought a group of first graders home from school the other day when we had an in service night. It all happened very quickly where my youngest son rallied his friends and they all asked their parents if they could come to my house. And so, these parents were like, “Sure, it’d be great if you could take them for the night.” And I was like, “I’m doing what?”

But they all came over to my house and we live in Northern Wisconsin, and we have ice on a pond and the pond is very shallow. But they all throughout the evening fell through the pond where they could still touch and started fires. So, I gave them flint and steel, they all started fires. They all played on the ice. They all fell through the ice. And again, it was managing that healthy risk. So, when I was a kid, I fell through the ice and it was very traumatic, I couldn’t touch. It was very scary. But I think it’s important that kids get to play in these risky scenarios.

And so, they were all testing to see what it felt like and what happened right before the ice broke and what happened after the ice broke. How to get themselves back to safety. And I was there the whole time and the same with the fire. I was like, “Okay, how are you going to start it? Here’s a flint and steel. And what are you going to do to make sure that it goes?” And some of these other little boys, they were FaceTiming their moms and their moms were like, “Oh my gosh, you’re like little lost boys.” And I was like, “Thank you for letting me have your kids and for being okay with this level of risk.”

But they all learned so much. And then when we were back in your house and we’re having hot chocolate, I talked to them about, “What was your favorite part? Where were you scared? Did you ever feel unsafe? How did you know you were going to be okay? When is that like another time in your life? When do you think you want to remember that lesson?”

They all started talking to me about stuff with older siblings or they get scared at school when it’s time for a test and they don’t know what’s going to happen. And to facilitate that conversation is very, very rewarding.

Amy: Oh, my gosh, hey, can we have our kids be besties too? And we’re going to come visit you in Wisconsin. There’s so much good in that. And I think, okay, bringing that back to kind of our listener and at their house and in their yard, what can that look like? Because I’m probably not going to go have my kids break through the ice on our pond because part of it’s deeper than that and that’s just a little outside my risk comfort zone right now. But I love the idea of what you were doing and that you knew it was safe and that you felt comfortable.

But I’m thinking, so what can that look like with us? What is our comfort zone? And maybe it’s rollerblading and letting the rollerblade on their own or letting them climb on boulders or letting them float a thing down the water and knowing it’s going to be okay down the stream or things like that. I just, I’m trying to think, do you have any suggestions for parents? And maybe it’s not a specific activity. It sounds like you have some in your book, so we should all go get your book.

And then it sounds like a lot of it, though, is the conversation after and helping them recognize that that confidence they’re learning through getting through something that felt maybe a little scary or a little risky. And then they saw that they got through it and they solved their way out of it and all of that stuff. And then how to relate that to everything else. I mean that just sounds like such an empowering thing.

Bryn: It’s, okay, your feet are wet. You’re. okay. We’ll be okay. The house is right there. We’ll go have hot chocolate. You don’t have to panic, we’re all okay. Yeah, and so accessible ways, again creating opportunities for autonomy, for choice and for healthy risk, one, go outside, just go outside. Kids will find stuff.

Amy: That’s true.

Bryn: Go for a walk. Go for a hike. Find local trails. Go to the park. My rule with the kids, I was the adventure program coordinator for a public school and I led adventures for kids 4K through eighth grade. And one example is that there was a 4K teacher who wanted the kids to hike in single file line. And kept telling me that it would be really hard to get them back if I let them break out of single file line. And I said, “I know but that’s what we’re going to do. We’re on a trail in the woods. We’re not in the hallways of the school.”

And she just really didn’t like that, what she perceived as losing control. And so, we set up ground rules. And I said, “You always have to be able to see me. And I’m going to point out a thing and you can run up to it and you can come back to me but when I do a call and response, you have to come and be behind me.” And so, as we were hiking, I would say, “Okay, do you see this pine tree?” And they’re like, “Yeah.” And again, I’m picking a distance between me and the object that feels safe for me to manage but the kids think that it’s far.

Amy: Yes, they do.

Bryn: I’m surveying the scene. I know that there’s not a road between me and this thing, there’s whatever else. And so, they run up, they tag the trees, some of them wait at the tree. Some of them have extra energy, and so they run back. And my rule with kids is that you are allowed to move your body as much as you want. You just cannot ruin somebody else’s experience.

So sometimes when hiking there’s the same kids who always want to be in the front and I’m like, “You can move your body and if you feel like your body needs to move, that’s fine but you can’t disrupt somebody else’s experience hiking because you’re always pushing to be in the front. So, if you feel like you have extra energy and you need to move your body, I want you to stand to the side and do jumping jacks, push-ups, burpees, hold the plank, whatever.”

Or it’s running back and forth between me and this other tree so that everybody else can hike along and enjoy the experience and they’re not constantly elbowing and shoving because they want to be the front person.

Amy: A leader.

Bryn: So, I challenge their comfort zone, “Hey, if you’re used to being somebody who’s always in the back because you don’t want to be in the front, I want you to come and be in the front. And if you’re somebody who’s always in the front, this is a challenge for you. I want you to be in the back and see what you notice, what’s different about your perspective from hiking in the back of the group, from the back of the line. And then I want you to think about the things that you’re noticing and you can come and tell me later.”

Amy: I love that. That’s so good.

Bryn: And so really getting them to challenge their perspective, giving them some of that autonomy and choice. But as we’re hiking, so they get the opportunity to run forward, they don’t have to. And then I’ll let them pick, “Hey should we go this way or this way?” And again, we’re not multi-day wilderness trips where we’re far from civilization. I manage the risk of, does this way go on a five mile route versus this one that’s a one mile route? There’s always some sort of way to bring it back. But I will say, “Do you want to go this way or this way? Do you want to go up the hill or down the hill?”

And I do, I let them climb on boulders. And again, another rule of mine is that nature has to stay in the nature and they can’t wreck the nature. So, they can’t snap trees. They can’t carry around sticks and smack each other but they can explore stuff and they can watch things.

And so, then it’s, “What kind of bugs do you see? Do you see any mushrooms? What are you noticing, this time of year, what are you noticing about the tree? What do the trees have now that they didn’t maybe two weeks ago? Or how do the trees look different right now than they did this winter? Or do you remember doing this last summer? What’s different? What’s the same? What’s your favorite? What’s something that surprises you? And can you be really quiet? What do you hear? Do you hear bugs? Do you hear birds? Do you hear your feet? Do you hear your friends? Are your friends making it hard to hear other things?”

And then it’s not me saying, “Everybody, be quiet.” They’re again noticing these things for themselves and they’re being intrinsically motivated to be quiet so they can hear these other things.

Amy: Yeah. It’s so good. I love it. And as you were talking about that, it reminded me of a quote that I heard from Jay Shetty, I think on his podcast. And he had talked about that he thinks that sometimes we spend so much time with technology, we’re all sitting in front of it. And even now in our elementary schools, so many of the kids have electronic devices to do their things on.

And he said, “Sometimes I think we spend so much time with technology that we forget we’re part of nature and we get so stressed about change and all of these things. And we think we’re supposed to show up like our computer every day where it just turns on and pulls up the internet and does all these things.” And he said, “Or our car that you go and you push the button and it turns on and it goes.” And he said, “But if you look at nature, it’s always changing.”

And so, this idea that we get so stressed about change or that we feel somehow that we’re supposed to show up every day and be the same every day and feel the same every day. And he’s like, “That’s technology, that’s not nature, if we’re part of nature.” Anyway, I love that idea and I think that so much of that, that you’re talking about comes and affects every part of life. It’s so beautiful and I want to get your book. So, tell us, we’re out of time, so tell us where to find your book really quick. And of course, we’ll include the link in the show notes but tell us, because I want to read it too.

Bryn: Absolutely. So, it’s called No Child Left Inside: Transforming the Next Generation Through Experiential Learning. It is available on Amazon. Amazon does a really great, they print to order. I’m actually recording an audio version of the book early next month. And so, for people who like to listen to books, like to consume media in that way, it will be available, I would say maybe within the next six months or so. I’ve never recorded a book before. But the recording will take a while and then editing and getting it available. But there’s a Kindle version or an eBook version. You don’t actually have to have a Kindle device to get that.

And then my website is brynlottig.com, so first name, last name. And there’s some resources right in my website, that if you click on the book, there’s all of the graphics and activities that are mentioned in the book are available on my website as both PDFs and a link to a digital platform version.

Amy: I’m so excited. Okay, we’ll put the links in the show notes. And I’m excited about your audiobook. I kind of do some of both. I’ve got my paper books and I can listen at the gym or sometimes when I’m hiking. And now I’m thinking maybe sometimes I should take them out. I do, actually sometimes take out the headphones. I do like to listen to audiobooks when I’m hiking, and sometimes I’ll take them out and just listen and just let my brain be by itself, which I love.

But this has been so amazing. Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing. And I hope that people take just a little bit of this and go have a little bit of risk, some safe risk, figure out what that looks like for them and get comfortable as adults with a little bit of risk. So that we can share that comfort with children and help them feel the security in having some safe amount of risk, an appropriate amount of risk. Because that’s just so powerful when we can feel comfortable in what our reality is, which is that there’s risk and that’s okay.

So, thank you so much and we will send people to get your book and I just appreciate you. Thank you.

Bryn: Well, it’s been a pleasure, and I would love to be besties and hang out way more often.

Amy: Okay, let’s figure out, I’m in Utah, I have really cool stuff outside my house too, so we could just kind of swap, and amazing. Thank you.

Bryn: Thank you.

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