Ep #24: Using Music to Teach Your Children Emotional Regulation with Laurie Berkner

Today I am talking to the amazing Laurie Berkner who is one of the top preschool music artists in the world. She has over one billion total streams. She has over 350 million views on YouTube. She is an incredible artist of top songs like We are the Dinosaurs, Goodnight, Moon Moon Moon, The Goldfish. And today she is sharing some of her thoughts with me on how music can help children with their emotions and with their bonding with other fellow human beings.

She is also sharing a little bit of behind the scenes on how some of her top songs were created, which is a really fun thing to listen to. So come and enjoy this interview with Laurie Berkner right after this.

Welcome to the Raising Healthy Kid Brains podcast where moms and teachers come to learn all about kids’ brains, how they work, how they learn, how they grow and simple tips and tricks for raising the most resilient, kind, smart, compassionate kids we can. All while having lots of grace and compassion for ourselves because you know what? We all really need and deserve that too. I am your host, Amy Nielson. Let’s get ready to start the show.

Amy: Laure, welcome to the show, we’re so happy to have you here today.

Laurie: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Amy: This is going to be so fun. My team was nerding out when we got your email. They were so excited to have you on the show. And so we’re just so thrilled. It’s so fun. I just want to know first how you got into being a preschool music artist and how you come up with your songs, just tell me a little bit about how you got here. This is such a cool place to be.

Laurie: Sure. I started almost 30 years ago, I think it was. When I graduated from college I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And I was playing around New York City in cafes, songs that I had written for adults. And I got a job as a preschool music teacher. And I was basically the cheap option I’m pretty sure, they told me. They told me that upfront because I had no experience. Yeah, I didn’t ask for much and it was an hourly job. They wanted to take their money and give it to a psychologist, which I think was great actually.

I wish they would do that in every school, not take it away from music, but I wish they’d put money into a psychologist, but that’s a separate discussion. So I started teaching there and really just was terrible. I struggled so much. I had no idea how to talk to kids. When I started it was three, four, five year olds. That first year they trampled all over me. And what they did was they were just being themselves and having fun. And I had no idea how to engage them. It was really on me. And I mean the teachers would just drop the kids off and leave for 45 minutes.

And I would tear my hair out trying to just keep them all in one place and then send them back. And it was a pretty hard year. But eventually what ended up happening was that I, instead of just bringing in songs that I had found at the library and that they didn’t like or care about I finally thought I should just ask them what they want to sing about. And so I did.

I just got really frustrated one day and I was like, “If you don’t like any of these songs, what do you guys want to sing about?” And one kid said, “Dinosaurs.” And then the rest of them started erupting, “Yeah, dinosaurs, that’s what we want to sing about.” And I was like, “Okay, great. Get up, let’s be done.” So yeah, I thought, minor key, march around, just start singing something. You’re a songwriter, you do this, just why can’t you write a song for the kids you’re working with? So I started to make that up and they followed me, marching around and we are the dinosaurs.

So then suddenly I noticed that they were starting to hurt each other. They were dinosaurs. So I desperately was like, okay, what can I do? Stop and eat your food on the ground. I just started singing something like that. And they did, they just stopped, everybody stopped and they got down on the ground and started to pretend to eat their food. And I was like, “Oh my God, magic. Magic.” So that was the kind of thing that just, I realized, okay, I need to listen to them. I also had observed my predecessor in that job and she basically said to me, “Stop talking to them, just put everything in the music.”

So, sing it, don’t say it became my mantra and it was so clear how well that worked, instead of stopping the song I was making up and I could have just started whatever yelling and stop, don’t claw at each other. But instead I sang about what they could do that would engage them and move them into a space that actually was still being dinosaurs, being involved in the song and away from hurting each other. That just became very clear to me. That’s who you do this. And I started writing songs that way. I still got a lot of support from the movement teacher who worked there as well.

And she talked to me a lot about that understanding of helping to regulate them through those quieter moments and the more active moments. So that was another thing that just became clear when I was trying to write the songs myself.

Amy: That’s amazing. I love this story so much because the dinosaur song is obviously such a loved song and well known song. And it’s so neat that you allowed the children to kind of co-create it with you and then followed their lead I guess as you’re building it. It’s amazing.

Laurie: I feel like it’s amazing too because not something I was planning, just it worked so well and I mean what’s amazing to me is also what incredibly good songwriters kids are, I think. I mean another song from those early days was The Goldfish song, Let’s Go Swimming. And that was another experience where I mean I had this idea that they were going to swim and then take a rest, swim and rest. And it was sort of that, okay, we’re going to move and then everyone’s going to take a moment to come back to themselves physically and mentally kind of regroup.

And that’ll help keep everything managed in the classroom. But when I sang that song and said, “Okay, when the fish woke up, they got on their bicycles,” which I thought, it’s just going to be funny. And then one kid said, “Wait a minute, we’re fish. We don’t ride bicycles.” And I was like, “Oh my God, you’re a genius.” We have to say that every time.

Amy: That’s amazing.

Laurie: Yeah, and that was that song. And it just felt like kind of incredible to me that I hadn’t heard that already somewhere else because it made so much sense to say that and it was so perfect. And I could never have come up with it myself I don’t think. It was just such a perfect thing for somebody who had only been alive for a few years to say. That’s what I mean by things being amazing. I just think kids, they say the most fun things.

Amy: They do, their brains think differently and they, I think when we listen to them they have such beautiful ideas. And I love that you involve them in it in a way, there’s a couple of things that I’m noticing and that it would be fun to talk about. So one of those is speaking less at children and using music as a different way of communicating because I think children get so many words sent their way as we’re giving them instructions. And so maybe changing it up a little bit and using a different way of communicating with them through music, which is powerful I think.

But also empowering children in creation and allowing them to be part of the process with you and maybe modeling for them some creation but giving them a lot of power to do that with you. I just think that’s such an empowering thing for children and a way to show them what they can do and make.

Laurie: Yeah, absolutely. I think it also made it more fun for them and they wanted to come to music because they knew they were going to have that opportunity and I wasn’t necessarily thinking that, but certainly I learned that over time.

Amy: And this idea too maybe of there not necessarily being a right or a wrong way to do music or to do other things and allowing it to just be a little bit silly or to include their pieces of whatever they came up with. I think that allows them to be more creative. So this is just so good, I love it. Okay, so let’s talk about emotional regulation. And I know you and I talked a little bit about that. So how do you feel like music teaches or helps children with emotional regulation?

Laurie: Well, when I think about whether or not the music is actually teaching them that, I think about it more as gives them an opportunity to practice that skill. Because something like what we were just talking about, both the goldfish song and the dinosaurs and a lot of the songs that I write, kind of within the song itself, it gives the kids a chance to have a lot of feelings. Like in the dinosaur song, can be a lot of angry, powerful, intense, strong feelings that are not always acceptable in more of a school situation or a class situation especially if they’re acting them out.

But it’s totally acceptable in that song, you get to say, “Wow, you have such a good roar, good job, dinosaur.” And they feel that excitement. So the movement itself can also bring out a lot of feelings that are bigger and might feel less like something that they feel in control of because it’s very exciting. So it’s really exciting to run around the room pretending to swim. It’s really exciting to march and roar and show your claws and feel that power of being a giant prehistoric animal. So I feel like in those songs, they move from that exciting moment, just what we were talking about before into quieter moments in the song.

They’re taking a nap. They’re stopping and doing something on the ground. There’s a quieter feeling in the music itself that actually cues them to relax, to physically change their body stance to bring the level of energy down. And then they have a chance to recover. They have a chance to come back to themselves. And then there’s space to be excited again without getting so excited that then maybe they’re not as in control of their bodies or of their emotions as they might be if it just were building, building, building and there’s never a chance to relax in between.

So I mean I try to do that in my songs a fair amount. I think it can also do that between songs. You can have, if you’re developing a set list for a concert, a few songs you’re going to sing in a classroom, listening in a car with your kids. If you think a little bit about moving from songs that are much more exciting in their rhythm, in maybe the level of sound, the speed, the content, all those things to quieter more internally reflective or slower rhythmically songs. I think it’s impossible to not react, to respond to that, not respond to that if you’re engaged at all in the music. So I don’t know, I think that all of those things really help with regulation.

Amy: That’s so fascinating. So I have thought it’s really interesting for children to have music particularly at these young ages to be able to express emotion that they don’t have the verbal skills to express yet. And I feel like music is so powerful that way and I think you kind of alluded and talked about that. But then I love the idea that you’re talking about giving them the practice of moving and switching out between different sets of emotions and that they’re all acceptable and that we get to switch around and practice that. That’s such a neat concept. I love that idea.

Laurie: Yeah. And I also wonder, to me practicing switching between emotions is actually, maybe I don’t even know if I know what regulating means. I feel like in my mind that’s being able to contain our emotions in a way that allows us to feel them without acting them out on other people. And also not feeling like we’re overwhelmed by them. Whereas practicing switching between emotions, I actually feel like especially with young kids, that is where they’re starting from. They’re already switching, they’re doing that all the time.

And it actually feels more like my job to encourage that, support that and allow that to be okay and roll with that. Because we learn very quickly to start to hold on to some of that stuff. And I think that’s actually where as adults we get into trouble. And I think what’s beautiful about music is music just has to change a little and it can bring up a feeling, a memory. It might incite some physical response because you start to move your body or you even notice an emotional reaction that maybe you didn’t know was right on the surface or maybe not on the surface.

But all of those things happen when we listen to music and that’s just a beautiful thing about music in itself and it allows us to move really quickly between different feelings as adults. Whereas I think for kids it’s sort of like, of course, that’s what I do. You know what I mean?

Amy: Yeah. This is so good. I love it. Okay. One of the other things that you brought up when we were kind of chatting before the interview was I just found so beautiful and so powerful and you talked about how music could help maybe kind of facilitate common bonds and create empathy. And I wanted to talk about that because I think that’s such a beautiful concept and such a neat idea and so true. So tell me a little bit about that.

Laurie: Sure. I think it starts with connection. I think that’s usually where I sort of in my own sense of wanting to create music, that does encourage a positive experience for someone. A lot of it starts with connection. And so what I mean by that is when we’re singing something, if you can sing that with somebody else, if there’s an interactive element, a call and response, a shared movement, a shared, maybe just shared words if you can sing along to it. That experience of creating music or experiencing music or even just listening to it in a way. That to me, that creates connection in and of itself just to start with.

So I think a lot from having been a music teacher, from a music teacher’s point of view, trying to bring all the kids together. And I’d still, this is mostly in my concerts and when I am recording and stuff now, I think about being in the room with all these people. Recently I just did a show last weekend, there were maybe 1200 people there. And it was just me on stage and I was singing when playing my guitar. But somehow I had the feeling that I was completely in control sounds a little bit tyrannical, but I felt like I was in control of that whole room because the music allowed me to do that.

And it created a connection between myself and the people in the audience and the parents and the kids or the adults and the kids who came together and all of the different families with each other. All of those things were happening at the same time because I was asking them to all clap together. Or they were having a shared experience of this song is making me laugh all at the same time. Or we were all actually singing and vibrating physically at the same time, creating vibrations together that were melding in that room that everybody was experiencing and sharing and that was coming back to them.

And so starting from there, it does feel like to me that doesn’t have to be live, although that’s a beautiful place to start to feel that connection. So that’s sort of one beginning, I guess I feel a little like I’m not being super clear because I have so many thoughts in my head. But that’s one place that I start from. I think that can happen when you’re at home, look at TikTok. One person just feels moved by a song and they share it with somebody else. And then three days later 12 million people have heard that song, responded to that song/ Are singing that song walking around.

I was thinking about that, not sure actually how to say their name, but Corook who has the song, Hey, hey, it’s okay, everybody feels kind of weird someday. I can’t get that song out of my brain and it’s, at this moment it’s something that lots and lots, and I know that actually they have another one out now too that’s also great. But I just feel that sense of, we all get it. We all have something in common because we like something about this song or it touches something in us or we want to sing it. Or now we’ve filmed it or we’ve sung it to our kids or we’ve, whatever.

All of those things break down boundaries. And suddenly every person, if I sang that song and somebody else knew it, I would feel like we have a connection. There’s something about you that connects you to me and makes you not other. You are now part of my people that I care about and I’m interested in. And I think we talked about this a little before. I feel like it’s a pretty quick leap even though it sounds gigantic to say, if we can just break down those barriers and could get to the point where we don’t have a sense of people being either ourselves or other, then we really could end a lot of the war and the enormous conflict that we have as human beings with each other.

Amy: I just love this message when you shared it with me the other day. And I think it’s so true and it reminded me of something Brené Brown talks about with creating these common experiences and being in a room with, maybe at a university football game or something. And everyone starts singing the school song and you just have this feeling of feeling so connected to everyone around you. And you could be totally different and have different political beliefs and religious beliefs and whatever but you feel in that moment so connected. And that’s what it reminded me of when you talked about that.

And I think it’s so valuable and so true and what a neat thing to do on a small level in a classroom helping children break down those barriers and feel connected. But then moving out into the wider world and finding ways to share these common things. And so I love that your music is already doing that and making a difference. And we send people to your music a lot.

Laurie: Thank you.

Amy: In our programs we recommend, “Go find Laurie and enjoy those songs.” And so yeah, it’s just beautiful and I’m so grateful you shared that because I think that’s such a powerful thing to think about and then how we do that with our own classrooms or our own children at home and creating those experiences and letting children participate in experiences like that to get to have boundary breaking moments, I guess.

Laurie: Yeah. Hearing you tell the Brené Brown story reminded me that one of my earliest musical memories is being, I was seven and I was in chorus for the first time. And I was singing our school theme song, school song, Spout with Pride, a whale of a school is your nickname.

Amy: I love it.

Laurie: I mean I remember every word from that song. And the reason I think was because I have this incredibly powerful memory, that day of being for the first time surrounded by other people all singing the same thing together. And the song, it’s so full of pride, it’s like spout with pride little bush, a whale of a school. It’s a real marchy song. And so it’s just really, really, it just brought up all this feeling in me and I never forgot that experience. And that I think in some ways is sort of what I’m always kind of longing for when I’m singing with the band or with a group of kids at a party or I don’t do that as much anymore.

But for many years I did or at a concert or even just sitting around a campfire or something, just that feeling is so, it’s like the best food ever. It’s very satisfying and feels so good.

Amy: That’s so good. I love this so much. Okay, one last question just for fun and then I’ll let you go. And alright, I have to ask, do you have a favorite song that was just so much fun to work on or that you love or a favorite album or anything like that?

Laurie: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that’s very hard to answer because my songs are my children. But I mean I do, what’s coming to mind right now is actually Chipmunk at the Gas Pump that I really enjoy. I don’t know if you know that one.

Amy: I’m going to go look it up now. That sounds amazing.

Laurie: Yeah, was a funny experience where I was actually being interviewed and things came up where it came out that I had wanted to work at a gas station when I was a kid. But also they had kids call in and say, just I was supposed to improvise songs which I really like doing that. And one of the kids asked for a song about a chipmunk and the host was like, “I want a chipmunk who works at a gas station and can’t actually reach the gas pump.” And so I started singing, I was like, okay, jump, jump, pump it up, chipmunk at the gas hose. And then I went home and I thought that’s such a fun idea, I’m going to write that whole song.

But it was a little bit outside of my usual style, but it’s very fun to sing. And I remember having kids come in and sing on the chorus with me. And I don’t think any of them could say, “Chipmunk at the gas pump.” They all said, “Chickmunk.” And I thought, I’ve written a terrible song, kids can’t sing it. But I’ll tell you, I see two year olds jumping to it like you would not believe. So it works. And it’s just a fun, it’s a little bit of a story song, a little more of a story song than I tend to write, so yeah, I really like that one.

Amy: That is so fun, okay, so everyone go check out the song and it’s amazing. I am so excited. Thank you so much for coming on today and chatting with us and just sharing that music and your process and what you’ve done and it was just delightful talking with you.

Laurie: Absolutely. Totally a pleasure for me too.

I hope you enjoyed that amazing chat with Laurie Berkner, I certainly did, it was so fun to get to hear about her process. It was also fun to get to hear a little bit about some of the songs that we use of hers in our Mommy and Me Preschool. We include music suggestions in all of our Mommy and Me Preschool lessons because music is such an important part obviously of child development, of regulation, of emotional health, all of those things. And it’s really great for learning. So we include a lot of recommendations in our Mommy and Me Preschool lessons.

And certainly we send you to Laurie Berkner’s YouTube channel a lot for some of those songs. So if you are interested in Mommy and Me Preschool and some of the things that we do there you can find out more at mommyandmepreschool.com. Also Laurie has the 25th anniversary of her second album coming out again, rereleased this year. It’s her album, Buzz Buzz, And you can go check that out now in music stores everywhere.

Don’t you just love all the fun things we’re learning on the show together? Well, we wanted to give you a chance to practice a little bit of it at home. And so we made you a special freebie just for being a listener here. And you can grab it at planningplaytime.com\special-freebie. That is planningplaytime.com\special-freebie.

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Thank you for hanging out with me today for this fun chat on Raising Healthy Kid Brains. If you want to see more of what we’re doing to support kiddos and their amazing brains, come visit us on our website, planningplaytime.com. See you next week.