Ep #32: 4 Types of Nurturing All Children Need with Deborah McNelis

One of the things she’s best at is making children’s brain development less sciency and making it really practical and easy for us to understand and practical to actually take steps. I came away with some things that I’m going to work on for my children in my home. We also talked about some of the things that we learned in the decade of the brain, the 90s, when we were really able to start looking at children’s brains from imaging and modeling and be able to see what was actually happening rather than just guessing based on behavior. I think you’ll love this one, the conversation is coming up right after this.

Welcome to the Raising Healthy Kid Brains podcast where moms and teachers come to learn all about kids’ brains, how they work, how they learn, how they grow and simple tips and tricks for raising the most resilient, kind, smart, compassionate kids we can. All while having lots of grace and compassion for ourselves because you know what? We all really need and deserve that too. I am your host, Amy Nielson. Let’s get ready to start the show.

Amy: Deborah, welcome to the show, we’re so happy to have you on today.

Deborah: Well, I’m glad to be here. I appreciate the invitation. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

Amy: Yeah, I’m so excited. Tell me a little bit how you go into children’s brain development.

Deborah: Alright. It’s a bit of a long story because I’ve been in the field for many, many years. And I started with a bachelor’s degree in early childhood education and started by teaching kindergarten. So I taught kindergarten for about 10 years and then branched out and I actually started doing presentations on how parents can get involved in supporting their children’s learning. And that was all at a time prior to technology being advanced enough for us to really know what was going on in young children’s brains. So it was all based on behavioral studies and theory.

So then I did a few other things, coordinated a program at a technical college and taught an early associate degree program, started a community based organization. And it was during that time when I was working at the technical college and I got my master’s degree at that time too because now in adult education because now I was teaching adults about children. But it was during that time, during the 90s which is now coined as the decade of the brain, brain research information was coming out because the technology became more advanced.

And scientists could actually see what was going on in those children’s brains. And that determined, well, now we know what they need. So I then had the opportunity to work for an advocacy agency and the organization had something called The Brain Project that was developed in collaboration with Dr. Bruce Perry. And some of your listeners may be familiar with Bruce Perry and his fabulous work so I was thrilled to have that opportunity to share those presentations and did that for about four years.

But then the funding for that project ran out and so what I commonly tell people is the funding ran out but my passion to get the information out didn’t end. So I decided to do it on my own and started my own company called Brain Insights. And it’s called Brain Insights because I give insights into the way that children’s brains develop but my niche is to share it in simple understandable language that’s digestible and makes it practical so that you can implement it into everyday life. And so I share ideas and suggestions for activities and interactions to make it easy to put into everyday life.

Amy: That’s amazing and thank you for doing that because I think so many of us we want to understand, we want to help our children’s brains and yet the neural science, all the things feel so big and the words feel so big. And so I love that you’re breaking it down for us and making it simple and practical so we can actually implement it in our crazy daily lives that we’re doing. So thank you for that.

Deborah: Well, it’s truly my pleasure. And one of the most common comments I get, which of course I love receiving, is I’ve heard a little bit about brain development before. I’ve read some information but I really didn’t understand it until I heard you explain it. So that’s always heartwarming when I receive that feedback. And actually the putting it into everyday life, part of it or the activity and sharing ideas with parents, it came from when I was teaching kindergarten. I had so many parents asking me, “What can I do to help my child learn?”

And so I started sharing ideas with them and explaining to them that learning takes place in everything that you’re doing throughout the day. Whatever experience a child is having it’s impacting their development, their learning and now I understand, at that time I didn’t, but how it’s impacting their brain.

Amy: It’s so fascinating and I love that you bring that up because I think that is so true that they’re just learning it in everything that they’re doing all day. And oh my goodness, the impact we can have if we just recognize that and use some fun little tricks. So I wanted to talk about your neuro nurturing model that you have. And so tell me a little bit about that and the pieces of that.

Deborah: Right. So that came about because it aligns with our conversation we’ve been having about making it simple and understandable because along the way I was realizing that sometimes just hearing that term, brain development might give the connotation that that’s going to be real sciency or neural science terminology. So I thought, well, what if we talk about it, use a different term to talk about it. And with that I was having a conversation with a colleague and as we brainstormed, came up with the term, neural nurturing.

So I trademarked that term to convey that brain development, it doesn’t have to be all that complicated and I’ll go back to that statement in a second, but that it’s developing that whole child. It’s not just about intelligence building and knowledge acquisition and pushing academics as early as possible. So I feel that the term neural nurturing conveys that we’re nurturing that neural development for all of who our child is. So I mentioned the not so complicated.

So in my presentations I realized I was saying at the beginning of our presentations, you can get, of course, intervals, high levels of neuroscience, the terminology and depth of brain development. But to provide what a child needs, that isn’t as complicated. And so what I was always saying is, “If you are providing nurturing, meeting the physical needs of a child, providing security and providing play, you’re doing and providing what a child needs.” I would say, “It’s really not that complicated, is it, if you’re providing all those four things?”

So when I developed that term neural nurturing, I thought, okay, I need to put something together to explain. Well, what goes into neural nurturing? And I realized, I talk about those four things. So I developed that model around those four areas. So the model is based on providing for the physical needs, the security, the nurturing and the play that a child needs.

Amy: I love it. So I just was so fascinated when I saw this on your site and I would love to break it down a little bit for us, for our listeners and for myself even and just talk about kind of a little bit of what each of those things looks like. Let’s start with nurturing, so with nurturing what are the pieces of that that we should be kind of thinking about as we’re making sure that we’re providing the right nurturing for our kiddos?

Deborah: Well, I love that you picked nurturing first because if I were to prioritize one or another, it isn’t possible and isn’t optimal to prioritize one because they all intertwine and all of it is needed. But nurturing is essential. And in fact, to sidebar a little bit, but it goes into your question is that I am now putting a lot of emphasis of my work on the first two months of life. And so I’ve developed a booklet called The First 60 Days and created something called The First 60 Days Movement.

Because the nurturing relationships in those first two months are significant in supporting physical, mental health and learning cognitive development, the foundation for all of it. So nurturing is essential. The big aspect of nurturing is that responsiveness and when a child needs you they need you to respond and they need you to respond with nurturing. So that’s the core of the nurturing portion of the model.

Amy: So with responsiveness because I think sometimes we are busy and we have a lot going on and we have maybe more than one child or if you’re a teacher in a classroom, you have a lot of children that you’re working with. And they come and they need you and they’re trying to talk to you and you’re on the phone or you’re on your laptop or you’re trying to do five things at once. How do we respond in a way that we can help them feel like they’re being responded to but also be able to still function, do what else we need to do? Is there a way to do that? What does that look like?

Deborah: Well, that’s a wonderful question, not always easy answers because yeah, it is difficult. Our attention gets pulled in, in lots of different directions and the children need our attention. And you mentioned the phone, that’s when they need your attention most, isn’t it?

Amy: Yes. Yes, it is.

Deborah: You are not paying attention to me, I need to find a way to get your attention and they’re going to work on that because they are feeling that lack of attention. There’s an early childhood consultant that will often say, “This child is always seeking attention and what do I do about that?” And her response is, “Give it to them.”

Amy: I love that.

Deborah: But your question is, yeah, you can’t always give it to them immediately but the more you do the better it’s going to be. And so one thing is if say you’re on the phone or you’re on your laptop and you’re just finishing an email or you just have to finish something and get something accomplished. If you can at least give them three seconds of your attention, “I hear you, I’ll be with you in a moment.” The more you can do that kind of thing the less it’s going to escalate. But if you just keep trying to ignore it, they’re going to continue to keep pushing for it.

Maybe you develop a signal, yeah, be with you in a minute, I do hear you. I do care about you. You’re giving that message that can sometimes help with them creating a little bit of patience to develop it or wait for it. But the other piece of that is the understanding of the child’s brain. The very last part of the brain to complete development is the prefrontal cortex which is behind our forehead. And that doesn’t finish developing, it’s developing all along the way all through the child’s development. But it doesn’t finish developing until about the mid-20s, mid to late 20s. And one of the areas that helps develop is the ability to delay gratification.

Amy: Yes, so true. Is it possible, just I’m thinking as a parent myself and having multiple children and running a business from my house and having a lot going on. Is there an element to, I love your idea of giving them a signal and kind of having an established signal, I see you, I hear you, I need a minute but I do see you and I’m paying attention to pulling them in and letting them your hand while they’re waiting for you to get off the phone or wrapping an arm around them or something, so that they’re getting maybe a form of attention, even if they’re not getting your entire attention?

Deborah: Definitely. When you’re on the phone, it’s very easy to pull them in and give them that, like you said, that physical connection which means a lot. Eye contact, you can talk on the phone and be directly looking at them, that doesn’t interrupt your phone call. So you can be doing those kinds of things. As far as the part that I was talking about previously about helping them wait. You might have like a little sand timer and flip that over and as soon as you watch that, watch that or they know that, you don’t have to verbalize it. Watch this then I’ll be with you when that’s done. And then you have to of course stick to that.

Or you can give them something to do, they get the signal, whatever your signal is and that signal’s do 10 jumping jacks while you’re waiting. That physical movement regulates the brain or encourage them to sway. Or maybe they could sing a song and when the song’s done, I’ll pay attention to you. There could be all kinds of different techniques you could try.

Amy: I love that. It almost gave me this vision in my head too because I’m kind of silly and goofy with my children. But I’m on the phone and we can do a little marching around the kitchen. They can just follow me around and get a little bit of movement while I’m actually playing with them but still having a conversation on the phone. So I love the way you can bring play into that and get movement into it and I mean there’s so many little pieces you could do there so I love that. It’s so good. Okay, let’s move on, I want to talk about the next one, physical. So what would the physical piece of this neuro nurturing look like?

Deborah: Well, it’s meeting the physical needs. So hydration is huge, we need to stay hydrated. If we are feeling thirsty, we’re 1 to 2% dehydrated already. And then that affects brain function. So late afternoon and you’re feeling that tiredness feeling. It might just be that your brain is thirsty. So ensuring that children have adequate amounts of hydration. Another big one is touch, we talked a little bit about touch, that is so important especially as the youngest children, their brain actually stops growing.

Their brain and body stop growing if there’s an absence of touch and especially in infancy. So that’s critically important of course. And then nutrition, a lot of times people don’t think of nutrition in relation to the brain as much as they think of it in relation to the body. But people are often surprised when I talk about, especially at breakfast, how providing adequate amounts of protein really makes a difference. So I’ll pick on pop tarts as my example. So if a child is given a pop tart for breakfast, what happens is their blood sugar levels rise because it’s a simple carbohydrate. So it raises the blood sugar levels.

Then 30 minutes later what happens is those blood sugar levels drop. So then what happens is the brain releases stress hormones. So it activates those stress hormones of cortisol. And with that activation a child might feel stressed or agitated or lose focus, can’t pay attention, get in a crabby mood, might be aggressive. All of those things, they can’t pay attention and learn, all of those things are happening because the brain didn’t get the fuel that it needed to function well. So the brain’s like, “I needed fuel and this is what you gave me. I can’t operate on this. This is stressful.”

So I release those stress hormones, that’s the brain’s perspective. So if a child instead is given adequate amounts of protein, some yogurt or a boiled egg or scrambled egg or something like that, what happens is the brain then releases serotonin, the feed good chemicals and can function better for longer periods of time, pay attention, learn, focus, all of that. So it really makes a difference. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve shared that presentation and someone will raise their hand and say, “Well, then why is the school breakfast program Fruit Loops and sugary apple juice?” So we’re not even giving those kids a chance then.

Amy: That’s so tricky. I love though that you gave a couple of different options because sometimes we’re dealing with eaters that are a little bit picky or whatever. But you gave several different options. And I think maybe not every kid would eat eggs but there’s yogurt and lots of different things that you could try. So I love that. I found it really interesting, you talked about hydration and that’s not one that I’ve thought about as much but how important that is. And I think of course touch is so important. As parents I think that’s maybe easier to do.

In a classroom, if you’re in a classroom because we do have a lot of teachers here as well listening, what might that look like because there’s so many of course restrictions around what touch can look like in a school situation? What might that look like to be trying to help make sure children are getting physical touch, is that even applicable? Is there anything you can do about that in a classroom?

Deborah: Yeah, it is difficult and certainly different settings have different policies on it. So I can’t make a real blanket comment. But if you’re allowed to give a hug and of course it’s all based on the child’s acceptance of it too. I mean they might have sensory processing that doesn’t even feel good for them. And so that is a piece of it as well. But if a child is open to receiving a hug and you’re allowed to give a hug, do it. If they want to hold your hand in a setting, let them do that or you can just rub their shoulder. Or of course it’s minimal but high fives and that kind of thing, pats on the back, those little kinds of touches, those mean a lot as well.

Amy: I love it. Thank you for those suggestions. I know that’s a tricky thing and so we just have to figure out what we can do and what works but I love those tips, that’s helpful.

Deborah: I was just going to add that if this isn’t touch, if you’re not allowed to do the touching, if there’s policies against that, the brain really turns into body language. So if you want to reinforce positives, even though you can’t do the touching, reinforcing with body language. The brain is focused on survival. So from day one, the baby is tuning into your facial expressions and picking up on your stress levels. So that body language is just built in. So doing those high fives and the smiles and the thumbs up and all of those positives through body language.

And just having that calmer demeanor to your body, we’re talking about attention, this kind of body language, I’m not giving you my attention right now or I’m not accepting of you right now. So paying attention to that really makes a difference as well.

Amy: Interesting. Is there a piece to this then that could be like you have like your hand signals or something? I’m remembering as I’m dropping off a kid at junior high or something and they’re maybe not wanting a big hug in front of the school. But I’m wanting to send some love to my teenagers, I’m dropping them off. And so we would do a little bit of a sign or a modified sign like I love you or something. Or sometimes I’d be silly and do like, I love myself and they were expecting me to say, “I love you.” And then they giggle and then, “And I love you too.”

And so that became a thing where they would do it back to me, I love myself or I love you, whatever. Is there a hand signal that you could do too maybe that would be good?

Deborah: Yeah, definitely. Have you seen those videos? There’s a lot of videos about children coming into a classroom and they have their own signal for that teacher, have you seen those?

Amy: I haven’t. I love that though.

Deborah: Yeah. They shared on social media where the teacher is standing at the door as the children are entering and they get to pick in what way they want to do a signal or a connection with you. So it might be a high five or a fist bump. And some kids develop their own and it might be a signal. So I love that you brought that up.

Amy: Yeah. That’s so good. Okay, yes, I love that. Alright, let’s talk about security. This one I feel is important too so let’s talk about that one.

Deborah: It is, they’re all important. The brain, as I said, the brain is always continuously focused on survival. So unconsciously we are always scanning the environment and the people in it for safety. So that’s the main thing, one of the critical important things about those first two months that that child is feeling safe and secure. They need to learn trust and that they’re safe, that they’re going to be responded to. So that’s a really, really critical time. But we need it all of our lives. So any ways that you can help that child feel safe, feel secure, that it’s safety, safety and security are tied in together.

So there’s many, my brain is just going with all kinds of directions I could go on this. But one is as far as risk taking or trying to help keep children safe, if a child is doing something that you’re a little bit worried about like I don’t know if they’re ready to do that, are they ready to climb that high on the climbing structure on the playground? Children are going to naturally, I’m going to generalize but children typically are going to only challenge themselves to the point where they really think they can succeed and be safe at doing that.

If it’s a situation though with a younger child like a toddler or a two year old and they don’t yet know what’s safe or unsafe, I remember that first year with my own kids, I felt like, don’t you feel like you just have to be there, they don’t know, yeah, they don’t know that they can fall off of that and crash their head. So if you have to divert a child from an unsafe thing that they might be doing, say they’re going to climb up on a picnic table and you can just see that they’re going to fall through that space and you have to divert them from that activity.

What you would do is you would verbalize first, I need to move you. I’m going to move you so that you can be safe and verbalize it to them and explain why you are interrupting them and disrupting what they were trying to do. So that’s a good practice as well. There’s so much to it. A part of feeling secure also is and some people might be surprised that this is a piece of it but providing choice. Whenever we have a real or perceived lack of choice it creates stress. So the more we can create choice for children, the more it’s going to reduce stress levels. They’re going to be more regulated because they’re having a choice in the matter.

And it creates less conflict and less power struggles and all of that. So a child is feeling a bit more secure as a result of having choice. And you can build in choice so easily in things you’re doing throughout the day. Would you like to read that story again or shall we sing a song this time? Should we have apples or oranges for lunch? I mean you could just build it in. And if it’s just simple, not multiple choices all over the place. But then when there’s things that even that they don’t have a choice about, you can build in choice. So they need to get ready for bed, they need to brush their teeth and they need to put on their pajamas. So they need to do both. But you can offer, would you like to put on your pajamas first or brush your teeth first? They have some choice in the matter.

So I tell this story often. When one of my grandchildren was, he was I think about three at the time. And we are getting ready to go somewhere and he had no interest in stopping what he was playing with to get ready to go. And I said, “You need to put on your shoes.” No response. I said, “Come on, you need to put on your shoes.” No response. I said, “Hey, would you like to put on your left shoe first or your right shoe first?” He came running.

Amy: Oh my goodness, I love it.

Deborah: He now had a choice. So fast forward a couple of years and same situation was occurring with a different grandchild. And I thought, I’m going to try it again. It worked again.

Amy: I love it. That is so great and I love that you include that as part of security. I would not have thought of that but I think it is so valuable for them to feel like they have ownership in their lives and some autonomy. And I like that you did too, that you didn’t give them every single possible option but maybe two choices or three choices because I feel that’s more manageable for that age, but I love that. And how you can build that into your daily thing.

Deborah: Yeah, it just makes life easier for you too. Then you don’t get, “I wanted the red cup.” You’re already giving them that choice. And there’s another fun story that I shared an idea with a parent recently. She said, “We get ready to leave the house in the morning and my son will not, he just throws a fit as we’re going to go out the door, going over the threshold of the door. That was the deal for him, he just did not want to do that.”

And I said, “What if you gave him a choice of the way that he goes through that doorway. Do you want to jump off of the doorway? How would you want to go through the doorway?” She said it worked like magic, it was night and day difference.

Amy: I love it so much, that’s brilliant, yeah. I can see it. I can see it right in my brain how well that would work. That is fascinating. I love that tip. I thought this was interesting too in security, just noticing that you also have that consistency in routine in there. And I think that does provide a sense of safety too. So I wanted to make sure we got those in there too because I think that’s really helpful for children to have a little bit of structure and routine.

Deborah: It is so, so helpful, yeah. When we know what to expect next it reduces stress. Using COVID as an example, we had no idea what was going to happen next, what was going to happen. That uncertainty was so stress producing. So when we think about it for children, when they don’t know what’s going to happen next, that’s what’s going to occur for them, that uncertainty and that stress level. So the more they know, this is our regular routine, it makes it so much easier on you. You have to provide fewer reminders and those encouragements because they know, after we do this, we do this.

And you don’t have to be rigid, rigid, but you have a regular schedule and this is how it naturally goes. But you can build in flexibility into that but let the child know. We’re going to do something a little bit different than we usually do right now and let’s make it fun, that kind of thing. Consistency also about your responsiveness, your responses. So maybe you have this expectation or this rule or this practice. Well, if you’re consistent with that, that’s going to make a difference as well. And your consistency in your responses. If you get upset about this behavior that they do, this time and you don’t get as upset about it this time, that creates a lot of confusion and insecurity for a child as well.

Amy: I can totally see that. And it feels like you have a lot less conflict between the two of you and like you said, they’re much more willing, it seems like to do whatever the things are. Or even just do them without even reminding them if there is that consistency and that routine, which of course is wonderful because all of us would like to have less conflict and reminding I think, so I love that. Let’s talk about the last piece of your model because I love this one. And I saved this for last because my business is Planning Playtime. I am obsessed with play, I love it. So your last piece of this is play, so tell me a little bit about that.

Deborah: Well, play is essential, it’s how the brain learns. But they need to have that, well, the movement that comes along with play, the sensory experiences that come along with play, the exploration, the trial and error, the creativeness, the using imagination through dramatic play. They can practice role playing and self-regulation. There’s an abundance to talk about in play. And you know that very well. So all of that is happening and physically creating those connections in those children’s brains. So what I’ll often say is, “What do children naturally want to do?” They want play.

They’re doing what their brain needs. So we just get in the way. One of my most popular blog posts is making that statement. A lot of times we just get in the way of that natural brain development that’s occurring. And if they’re initiating it, they’re already interested. We don’t have to motivate them. It’s already all happening. So yeah, and that movement is regulating and I could just go on and on. It’s essential and critically needed. And I didn’t mention the brain, I do hold presentations on the way in which the brain focuses attention. When a child or anyone has focused attention, brain cells and brain connections are changing.

So whenever we’re focused on something that’s happening, when is a child most focused? When they’re playing. And they’re learning about the world. What happens if I do this? What happens if I do it this way? How am I creating this reaction? So how am I having an impact on that? All of that is occurring. And so another part of it is the repetition that happens in play. Repetition is what creates the strong pathways. If something happens over and over again, the pathways in the brain are strengthened and so children do things over and over again.

So say a child is playing with sand and they have a bucket and they’re filling up this bucket and they’re really focused on filling up that bucket. And then they dump it out and they fill it up again. And they dump it out again. And they’re just processing and experiencing, physically experiencing what is happening, and what happens when I do things with sand. So they’re learning all of that and they need that repetition to verify that what they have experienced is true. If I fill this up and I dump it out, this is what sand does.

Now if I fill this up with water and I dump it out, oh, that’s what water does. So through that repetition I need to dump that water out again to see, does that same thing happen every time I do it? Does the same thing happen with the sand every time I do it? I am learning about my world through that repetition and learning that that occurs over and over again. So I’m verifying that what I experienced is true.

Amy: That’s so fascinating. And I love it. Yes, play is amazing. And I love that it’s a way for them to build, I think some grit and resilience too as they’re getting to do something over and over and over again, trying to get it to work. And learning those emotional regulation skills and interpersonal skills if they’re playing with other people. And it’s just so good, yeah.

Deborah: And there’s one more point about when they’re in that process of that repetition experience and they have that focused attention, what we want to do, a lot of times we’re well intentioned that we want to get in there and kind of enhance that experience. So what are you doing with the sand? What happens when you dump that out? What instead would be preferable is when you see that occurring and that child really processing and really engaged, what you want to do is avoid interrupting them and let them go through that process, that thinking.

We all know what it’s like when we’re on the phone or we’re on the laptop and we get interrupted. We want to do that same respect for the child with the understanding of how valuable and important that is, that they’re processing and they’re having that learning experience. If they invite you in and say, “Look what I did”, then you can engage and say, “What did you do? Tell me about it.” But if they’re in that thinking process and that focused attention, you want to avoid interruption.

Amy: Interesting, so I don’t know if I would have guessed that. So when they’re really, really focused and that focused attention, playing then we just kind of observe and wait to be invited in to respond?

Deborah: Exactly.

Amy: It’s so good to know. Oh my goodness, this has been amazing and we have been chatting for a while and I need to let you go but thank you for coming to share. This has been an incredible conversation. And tell us where we can find you if our listeners want to come and learn more from you, how do they find you? What’s the best way to find you online?

Deborah: If they just go to my website, that’s the easiest, that is braininsightsonline.com. And from there you can sign up for my newsletter. You can sign up to be part of our First 60 Days Movement. You can find all my social media locations. So you can choose the way that you want to connect. And you can email me. I love connecting with people that care about kids. So you can reach out to me in that way too. I appreciate you inviting me. This was a wonderful conversation.

Amy: Yeah, thank you so much for coming and we will include links down in the show notes so that people can just click and find that really easily. And thank you again for coming, I have been so grateful to get to learn from you today and look forward to hearing more from you.

Deborah: And they can find that neural nurturing model on that website as well. They can see it there, yes.

Amy: Yeah, it’s really helpful to look at the image you have, it’s really easy yeah, easy to look at and remember, yes. Thank you so much again for coming on. I’ve really appreciated it.

Deborah: Well, thank you.

Don’t you just love all the fun things we’re learning on the show together? Well, we wanted to give you a chance to practice a little bit of it at home. And so we made you a special freebie just for being a listener here. And you can grab it at planningplaytime.com\special-freebie. That is planningplaytime.com\special-freebie.

So what this freebie is I’ll tell you, is an amazing alphabet activity that you can start using with your kiddos. And it is based in play and is so fun. You can use dot markets with it. You can use Q-Tip painting. You could use circle cereals. There’s all kinds of options, but you can print it out today and get started. Just head over to planningplaytime.com\special-freebie and we’ll send that to you right away.

Thank you for hanging out with me today for this fun chat on Raising Healthy Kid Brains. If you want to see more of what we’re doing to support kiddos and their amazing brains, come visit us on our website, planningplaytime.com. See you next week.