Ep #91: Teach Your Kids to Declutter: Practical Advice for Involving the Whole Family with Katy Wells

If the word “decluttering” kind of stresses you out and makes you tighten up a little bit and feel things, you are not alone. Come and just be with me today. Because this conversation is all about grace and tiny changes and strategy to really just release so much of that, to be able to bring more peace and clarity and cleanliness, and help into your life in, I feel like, a really doable way.

My guest today is Katy Wells. She’s a nationally renowned decluttering expert, a mom of two, and the host of The Maximized Minimalist podcast. She was so helpful to me personally, and I learned some things. I hope you will too. She talks about something that really stuck out to me, it was the difference between expected mess and clutter. Just that piece alone might be a game changer for you.

One of my other top takeaways from today was when she talked about her permanent donation bins and the location she puts them in and her strategy around that. I found it super helpful. I kind of had a little piece of that already, but she’s given me some new ideas of how to implement that with my kids. And then the impact that has on our children as they’re building these skills while being in our homes.

It’s amazing. I hope you love it. It’s coming up right after this.

Welcome to the Raising Healthy Kid Brains podcast, where moms and teachers come to learn all about kids’ brains, how they work, how they learn, how they grow, and simple tips and tricks for raising the most resilient, kind, smart, compassionate kids we can. All while having lots of grace and compassion for ourselves, because, you know what? We all really need and deserve that, too. I am your host, Amy Nielson, let’s get ready to start the show.

Amy Nielson: Katy, I’m so happy to have you on the show today. Welcome.

Katy Wells: Thanks for having me. Can’t wait to talk all things decluttering. This is going to be so fun. I love it.

Amy: Okay. When we bring it up, it almost starts to feel like stress and pressure. Is this going to be stress and pressure, or are we just going to have a lovely, relaxing conversation? But also, let’s do some stuff.

Katy: I geek out over this stuff. I think, hopefully, that comes through to your listeners. Whether they’re feeling overwhelmed or not sure where to start, or maybe they’ve tried decluttering before but the results don’t last, I promise they’ll get some new takeaways today. And hopefully feel motivated and encouraged, as a lot of my listeners do.

Amy: I love it. Okay. I just wanted to start with that. Because I feel like you hear “decluttering” and you’re like, “Oh, I should do that, but it’s too much.” Okay, so good. We’ll just put that out there, all the grace. But also, my gosh, what if we could come up with something that worked and helped and made it better?

All right, before we get into it, can you just tell me, how did you get into this? What it got you into decluttering?

Katy: In short, I will say parenting, in a big way, led me to realize that I needed to take control of my physical environment, my home. Ultimately, we had a life-changing car accident when my kids were little. They were two and one at the time, and my family and I were in the car. I almost lost my husband that day.

I remember not knowing for hours on hours, just waiting in the hospital, waiting to hear from the doctor to see what was going to happen to my husband. It was just probably the lowest point in my life. I didn’t know if I was going to go home a widow from that hospital.

This came at a point in my life, too, where I was absolutely the season of life, which a lot of us have been through, the young childhood, the sleepless nights, the new identity as a mom, and all these different things I was battling with, chronic depression, chronic anxiety. I remember coming home from the hospital after the doctors were like, “He’s going to be okay. You need to get home. Go get some rest.”

I had two good friends at the time drive me to my home. I’ll never forget, Amy, the second I walked into my home, I opened that front door. I didn’t have that panic 20 minutes to clean before everyone came over like I used to, to make it seem like I had my stuff together and make it like, “Oh, my house is semi-presentable,” right? I didn’t have that time.

When I opened that front door and walked into the threshold of my house, I really saw my home for what it was in that moment, which was just absolute chaos. It was certainly for me, and maybe you and your listeners can relate, I think it was a reflection of what was happening inside as well. The shame I felt as I’m having my friends walk me into my home; the heat in my body, the shame, the guilt.

“I can’t believe they’re seeing my house. They must think I’m a slob.” I’m thinking they’re judging me, all these things we’ve all experienced on some level. Then I remember immediately getting angry and going, “First of all, how did I let my house get like this? But I need to devote my time right now more than ever to myself and my kids and my husband who’s going to be on this long extended healing journey.”

“Never again will I feel ashamed of my home. I don’t care how busy I am, how tired I am, how it’s never going to be the opportune time to declutter. I don’t care how many young kids I have. I’m done. All the excuses don’t matter anymore.” Because at that moment, my “why” got really big. I needed to do this for my mental health, for my relationships, for my happiness, for my peace, for my energy, all these different things.

While I used to roll my eyes back when I heard other experts and gurus talk like that, it didn’t take long before I started to feel that. I want to share with your listeners too, number one, you don’t have to wait to hit your rock bottom before you change. Before you make a big choice and go, “You know what? I want to go right instead of left. I don’t like this path I’m going down. I can change now.”

Number two, you’re going to start tasting that freedom, that liberation, that peace and calm minutes into your declutter journey. It’s not like your home has to be picture perfect, which by the way isn’t possible. That is a myth we are being sold. Simplicity and minimalism, all these things are being commercialized for us to purchase and consume, which the irony is not lost on me there.

But I can’t tell you how many women will listen to my show or join a program or whatever, hear me talk and they’ll go, “I decluttered for 10 minutes and I felt less stress. I feel more in control.” And in a world where still many of us are out of… there are things out of our control. I just went through a natural disaster in my home town of Asheville, North Carolina. There are so many things still outside of my control; work, relationships, and other things. But I feel like if we can all understand, no matter how busy we are, no matter how messy your partners are, or how many dirty socks get thrown onto the living room floor, we do have a very large element of control of that environment. And I think once we can come to terms with that… This is exciting. It doesn’t have to be, “I’ll reclaim my home when my kids are 18 and go off to college.”

I guess this is just my season. I get so excited about that. And that’s ultimately why I started my own show, and why I’m here and excited to talk to you today.

Amy: Oh, there are so many parts of that that just were so real and just spoke to me. So thank you for sharing. And I am so sorry about the hurricane and your home and all of that. I’m just sending you all the love.

One of the pieces that you said, that really resonated with me was it gives you some feeling of control. And I feel like all of us… Certainly my life has been many pieces of things that I don’t control. And you’re like, “Oh wow, that’s something that’s happening.” And there’s sometimes so little we feel like we can do. A natural disaster is such an example of that. But my gosh, a diagnosis, right? Upheaval in your family. There are so many different things. And for me, it does… I’ll say, my husband, sometimes when I’m cleaning maybe a little frantically or something like that, he’ll be like, “Are you okay?” It’s almost like a thing I go to as a coping mechanism because it’s something I control.

And I don’t know that that is a level that’s healthy, just frantically clean when you’re having emotions. But I think it does. It gives you something, right? Even if it’s this one drawer, the junk drawer, whatever the drawer is, if you can just do that one thing, it gives you something that you have control over.

So I love that. It really spoke to me when you were talking.

Katy: Yeah. You’re like, “I don’t know if this is healthy or not,” well, it’s certainly better. My coping mechanism, many years ago, was online shopping, which made for tons of clutter, wasted tons of money, all the things. So I think we all have different ways we cope dealing out of control. But I think one really beautiful thing, and again, I just want to reiterate that we need to step away from this myth and lie we’re being sold that it has to be perfect or what’s the point?

So many women come to me and are like, “I just spent 15 minutes decluttering or resetting my space and cleaning up the mess. And then the kids come home or the dogs come in from a muddy walk and my partner puts their wallet…” And yes, the expected mess and clutter are cyclical, but we can integrate them in really simple fashions into our normal everyday routines versus what we’re sold; you need to waste an entire weekend or you need to hire a part-time person or an organizer to come into your home and completely go through it.

But if we can kind of step out of that lens and go, “You know what? There are things I can do in 30 seconds each day that are going to help me reclaim, feel more stable in my home environment.” And when we have that, we’re able to think clearly, make better decisions.

And going back to one thing I always talk about on every single podcast I do, it’s all about connection. We are on this earth to connect with one another. I realized in that moment, after that car accident, walking into my home, that clutter was standing in the way of connection; that’s with myself. That’s with my husband. I didn’t have time for, “How was your day?” It was not anything I asked him. It was all these different things; all the clutter, all the piles, all the stuff, all the whatever.

Connecting with my kids. And when it became so crystal clear that clutter was this massive roadblock in between me and that connection… Again, when your “why” is big enough, the rest of the stuff tends to fall in place a lot easier. You don’t have to figure out how am I going to do this? Where am I going to find the time?

And again, not saying those aren’t real challenges for people. They certainly were for me at that time. But there are ways, I think, sometimes in our mindset, if we just shift it a little bit and go, “Okay, well, let’s look at it from this perspective. Let’s, again, integrate it into our daily routines,” it can be a lot simpler than we think.

Amy: So many pieces in there spoke to me too. I think we could just be friends. When you’re talking about connection, I think that’s such a thing, right? Because there is shame around not having the perfect house or not being so clean or whatever, right? And there feels like there’s a lot of shame in that. And so I think people literally don’t have friends over or invite people to their space because there’s shame.

I thought it was really interesting you talked about even avoiding yourself somewhat. It just feels like so much, and for good reason, right? You have a house full of children or even one child can do a lot of mess in a very short period of time, or a spouse or whatever, right?

Katy: Or us, right?

Amy: Or us. Yeah. It just can happen really quick. But do we kind of avoid our reality, and just go, “It’s so much. It’s overwhelming. I’m going to go watch a TV show instead,” or something, and just kind of separate from ourselves. And then you talked about connection with each other.

And then I think maybe is there resentment ever between you and the other people that you live with because of all of those things? And the other piece that you talked about that I loved, was you said, “It’s not about having a perfect house. It’s about these little tiny changes.” And it reminded me of the book Atomic Habits, right?

The author speaks about these 1% gains. This aggregation of marginal gains, these 1% gains. Because what happens then, is it just changes your trajectory and they stack. They add on each other and it grows and grows and grows and grows. And my gosh, change happens. And it looks so small at first, but that means it’s doable, which is good. And then it just increases on itself, which is amazing.

Katy: Yes, absolutely. Highly agree. Love that book, and definitely believe and use a lot of the principles James Clear talks about. I think so many of us, and especially women… I don’t know if you can relate. Let’s just talk. We’re friends, right? So going back to a lot of things were kind of sold; the picture-perfect house, or here’s the perfect organizing bin and all these different things.

I tried that. It didn’t work, right? We need to declutter. We need to simplify. We cannot buy our way into a simpler life. I spent and wasted a lot of money to learn that lesson. So hopefully, I saved someone some money here. I lost my train of thought; I got stuck on those organization bins. Oh man, I used to love going into Target thinking, “Oh, I just need a new bin. I just need a new bin.” Shoot, right on the tip of my tongue.

Amy: What we were talking about… No, I love it. It happens to me all the time. We’ve got all the things going on in our brains too. We were talking about James Clear and his 1% marginal gains and just kind of building on each other. But I think – I feel like that’s what makes it doable too, when you don’t feel like it has to be perfect and it doesn’t have to be everything.

Katy: And that’s where I was going with that. So another kind of piece to that puzzle. Which ultimately, for me, kind of goes under the umbrella of this perfectionism. So many of us women and moms are sold on, “If I can’t do it perfectly, what’s the point?” It’s such a big deal for so many of us.

And so for us to go, “Well, okay, I’ll read this book on 1% gains.” It makes sense on paper. But to actually execute on that feels incredibly – and as a recovering perfectionist, I will say painful. And there’s a huge roadblock there. I know what I need to do, but I want to do it all right now.

But we have to understand and we have to be able to move past that, right? That’s why mindset is such a big piece to this. If strategy was the key to success, if checklists were the key to success, we wouldn’t be here. We’d all have picture-perfect homes, right? Or have at least reached our goals of a simplified home, let me put it that way.

But it really involves so many other aspects, mindset being one of them; getting over procrastination, beating overwhelm, just getting started, setting a timer. I mean, there are so many different things you can do to help push yourself into that. But I will say that tends to be a really big struggle for so many women. “Oh, 30 seconds of decluttering? What’s that even going to do?” We have a kind of self-sabotage, or whatever it is, that comes up.

And then the regress that we don’t take the action we want. So I want to encourage your listeners that as silly as it sounds, no matter how much clutter you have, if you’re like, “Well, Katy, you haven’t seen my home.” Girl, I have seen a lot of homes. And all of my clients get started in the same way. The same way.

They don’t have tons of time, and they don’t have to quit their jobs in order to make real progress and lasting change.

Amy: So good. I was thinking, when you were talking about this perfectionism thing, there was a TV show that came on, that my ex-husband had on one day years ago, and I think it was called Hoarders or something. But it was kind of a decluttering show. And it was this sweet human that this whole thing happened, TV worthy cluttering, in her home. Because her garbage can was so perfect. She had cleaned the garbage can, it was so perfect, and she didn’t want to mess it up. And it just kind of snowballed from there.

I’m sure there’s so much else going on there, but I just thought it was so interesting that sometimes our perfectionism really sabotages us to such a high level. And my gosh, if we could just start with the smaller pieces and allow ourselves the grace to just be human and make a little progress at a time. It is super hard, but if we could do that.

And then I think too, the other piece that came to me was, as a parent, with my kids, when I’m working with my kids, I don’t expect perfection from them. I expect them to try, right? You’re not going to be the most amazing at everything the very first time you try something. But if you never try, you’re going to suck at it always. So just try, right? Do something.

I’m thinking, maybe we need to parent ourselves a little bit that way, and say, “This is how I would treat my child in this situation. I would give them grace for it. I would give my neighbor grace for this, right?” And can we give ourselves that grace too and just say, “Hey, you’re probably not going to be amazing at this the first day, or get it totally perfect,” or whatever, right?

But if you work at it, if you try and you do that regular progress and kind of, I don’t know, be that support person for ourselves as well as all the other people that we’re supporting in our lives, give ourselves that same grace.

Katy: Yes. And I will say too, on that note, a lot of us tend to wait for that motivation to hit, which naturally and I think kind of innately, organically comes January 1st. If this episode is out before January 1st, you can still declutter something today. You don’t have to wait.

I will say it feels good, the new exercise routine. And there’s a whole probably other conversation tying into Atomic Habits we could have about that. But you can get started today. Is it okay if I share a couple quick tips, actionable things?

Amy: Please do. Yes, absolutely.

Katy: So the first recommendation I have is to set up … This is a hack for me. I’ve used it for years. I used it to help me make progress when I was buried in clutter, and I still use it now that I’m in maintenance mode … to set up at least minimum of one permanent donation bag or donation bin.

It could be an old Amazon box that you haven’t broken down yet that’s sitting in your garage. It doesn’t have to be fancy. But what I want for it to be is a visible and accessible bin or bag in your home that is going to be your permanent spot for anything that you’re going to declutter throughout the day.

Because when I say you can declutter something in 30 seconds or a few minutes here and there, what I’m really talking about is one of my strategies called a “clutter audit”. So a clutter audit is basically… Look at it, Amy, like a micro declutter session. It takes less than two minutes. It can take 10 seconds. And the idea is, establish a habit, to incorporate these into your normal, everyday household activities. So think about all the chores we do throughout our home throughout the day.

When you are putting clean coffee mugs back in the morning, if you unload your dishwasher every morning like I do, there’s an opportunity, instead of just stacking the fresh, clean ones in front of the old ones with a quarter inch of dust on the back, to go, “You know what? These two mugs, we haven’t used in six months. That one has a chip on it. This one doesn’t fit my hand. This one my best friend gave me, I never use it.” I just got rid of four mugs in 10 seconds. You get the idea.

So when we’re helping the kids put the toys away, when we are maybe folding the kids’ clothes during laundry, “Hey, these pants were a little tight for my son. These can go into the donation bin.” I really love to have them somewhere visible. In ours, our main one is in the garage, and there’s no lid on it so I can see what’s in it. It’s easy to walk out into my garage with my hands filled and just plop things into it. It’s visible. It’s eye level. My kids know where it is to add things to it. My husband knows. So teach your family how to use it.

And then when you want to go 2.0, from 1.0 to 2.0, you want a little upgrade, I really recommend, if you have kids or even if you don’t, the laundry room, it’s another great spot. Again, we pull things out of dryers, and they don’t fit. But what do we typically do? I’ll tell you what I used to do. “Oh, this doesn’t fit Levi anymore, but I don’t have time to declutter right now.” So I toss it back into his dresser for him, to then have to go through all the clutter to get what actually fits.

It builds and builds and builds along with our stress levels. So again, there’s hundreds of opportunities throughout our day to get rid of one thing here. “Oh, this, I don’t need 1,800 forks in my silverware drawer. Why don’t I donate 10 of them?” And again, it’s progress.

Like you said earlier, you get 1% better every day. You’re like an onion and you’re peeling back the layers. So start with the low hanging fruit. Start with the superficial clutter. This is the stuff that you don’t need, typically, strategy for. You don’t need the checklist A to Z. It’s just the stuff that has to go. You just need invest a little time into it. And clutter audits are really perfect for that.

And guess what? Like I mentioned earlier, it’s cyclical. Clutter comes in, or it wasn’t clutter yesterday or six months ago but maybe it’s clutter now because your lifestyle changes, because you change. Your family evolves as a unit. My kids aren’t playing with stuffy bears anymore, now they’re playing with basketballs.

But to be able to kind of look at your items in your home objectively and go, “You know what? This isn’t serving me anymore, into the donation bin it goes.” And having that dedicated spot for it really helps prevent and reduce procrastination, which is a doozy. And that will help so many of your listeners as well.

Amy: Oh, I love it so much. And it’s, I think, something we can all relate to. But it does. But that’s a big job, right? That’s a Saturday all day thing, to go declutter, right? Instead of just, “Hey, I’m folding laundry, throw this in over there. Okay. While everyone’s hauling their pile up to their drawers, we’re just going to take this and out to the garage.” So it’s just changing that mindset.

I’m not like doing this huge… Committing my Saturday to doing this whole thing. It’s just these four things I’m taking out and putting in the bin. Love it. What else have you got? That was so good. That was simple.

Katy: Okay. This changed my life, as well as many of my students. So clutter audits are a great way to get started with clutter, right? Earlier, I mentioned what I call “expected mess” that happens through life. We clear the countertops and then we make a meal. Or we clear out, clean up the toys and then the toys are back on the floor. And even though mess and clutter are two different things, clutter is clutter. The solution for clutter is to declutter it.

A lot of us women and people get these two confused. And when we see mess on the counters, our brain doesn’t really interpret it as a mess. We think of it as… Because we assign this meaning to it, we’re like, “Oh, I’m failing. Oh, what’s the point? Oh, more to do.”

And so, first of all, we need to understand the difference. Because that mindset part is so important. If you see mess, and start to feel or do feel resentful or your home shouldn’t be messy or ‘what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I figure this out?’… I used to think that all the time, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I…? Nothing’s wrong with you, homes are supposed to be messy. And mess can actually be a really beautiful thing, and it can also be really annoying. I get it.

I can speak out of both sides of my mouth sometimes. But sometimes it’s helpful to, again, look at it through a new lens. So the solution for expected mess isn’t to go, “Oh, gosh, my family’s so messy. Forget it. What’s the point?” Or to declutter it because it’s not clutter. So I do what I call “resets”.

So these are resets, where you essentially reset particular spots in your home throughout the day. These can be any done anywhere from once a day to three times a day in busy hubs, like a kitchen. A lot of us organically do this after a meal, right? We tend to clear the dishes off the table and then do the dishes and reset the kitchen.

Really, Amy, it’s about applying that same philosophy towards other areas in your homes that tend to accumulate expected mess, which does the same thing as clutter to us, mentally, right? When we see that expected mass build, it tends to raise our cortisol, stress us out, we get triggered, we lose patience, all the things. We know how the story ends. It ain’t pretty. Entryways are a fantastic way; I highly recommend at least doing one reset in an entryway.

Amy: Do your kids ever put shoes, their shoes, where they go? Mine don’t.

Katy: Oh my gosh. I’m like, “The bin is right there. Your shoes are here.”

Amy: You know what changed my life? Giving up.

Katy: Same thing. Everything has a home, as crazy as it sounds. It’s part of the process to keep things simple. But instead of constantly harping on my kids… And here’s the thing, I put my shoes right next to the bin too. So I’m a horrible offender. I’m no model in this way. But instead of harping on them, why don’t I just… At the end of the night, my nine-year-old is responsible for resetting that space. So all he does is moves the shoes 12 inches into where they go; because we’re lazy and we’re human and we’re imperfect. It’s okay.

And guess what? When I see that mess, those shoes where they don’t belong, even though they’re close to where they live, when I see those, after school, on the floor, I’m not like… Because my brain knows, hey, we got this. There’s a plan in place. River is responsible for that. Levi’s responsible for the living room. Andrew and I are responsible for kitchen cleanup. And we tag team, we work as a family unit.

And so again, I see the mess differently, I handle it differently, and it impacts me differently. And thinking about how much time we spend in our homes, this is huge for our mental health, our stability, our focus; all the things on inside the home. So daily resets for those kind of expected mess hubs are fantastic.

Teaching your kids how to do a reset in their bedroom and their play space; modeling that and encouraging them. I think one of the biggest mistakes we make as parents, and I used to do this, was not teaching our kids how to clean up. Just saying, “Clean this mess up. We can’t go to the play date until you clean this up.” And they’re like, “I don’t know how.”

Amy: They’re like, “It is clean. It’s just fine.” You’re like, “Uh, this is not clean.”

Katy: And so being able to coach them through that in a really simple way has been integral for me to onboard my kids into these life skills we’re talking about; managing their stuff. So when they go off to college … If that day comes. Hard for me to imagine, they’re nine and eight.” … I will feel pretty good that they can make some scrambled eggs, do a little cooking, and cleaning and declutter and manage their stuff.

Amy: Oh my goodness. So we’re talking, and I am confident that our listeners are having some similar experiences. But you’re talking about the shoes… And I love the definition you gave between mess and clutter, and just explaining how that does the same thing in our brain. Because I come out and I see our shoe area.

And there are, granted, nine people who live in my house. We’re a blended family so there’s a lot of us. I come and I see all the shoes and I just want to throw all the shoes away. My decluttering brain is like, “The way to solve this problem is to get rid of all of it.” And I’m like, I just need to throw all the shoes away and there will be no shoes on the floor. It’s going to be fine.

And then like logical part of your brain comes and you’re like, “That is not a solution at all.” So I love that you talked about that. It does, it goes into our brain the same way. I’m going to start using that piece of the expected mess. I love, I love that. It’s the expected mess. And then what strategies do we have around that?

I love the reset option. That’s such a good one. And we do, we do it in our kitchen all day long. My husband is so good at this one actually; and having the kids help with every meal, with dishes and all those things. But yeah, what is our structure in place for that? So good. I love that.

And teaching our kids do that. And I think it gives them some sense of control too, particularly when we make sure we take that step in teaching them what the expectation is. And we just literally did this two weekends ago. My husband went in with all the little girls … We have three little girls that share a room because they really wanted to. They begged, “Can we share?” And so we have three little girls in one room because they really wanted to.

It’s hard to keep that room super clean. And so he went through and he says, “This is what it’s supposed to look like when we’re done.” Anyway, he’s been kind of working with them on that; here’s the bin for this and here’s this, and whatever; starting the expectation. And then they know, when we say, “Is your room clean?” And they’re like, yes. And you’re like, “Does it look like the picture that we created for this?”

Katy: So good. I’ve actually had some clients do that, where they work with their kid to clean up their room. First of all, and I totally agree, I think that’s an under-discussed part of teaching. Especially when it comes to any life skill within the home; home management, cleaning, decluttering, organizing, picking up resets, etc., is explaining and teaching your kid what does “done” look like. Because we all have different levels of expectation.

I remember when I thought I was teaching my kid how to vacuum, and he had a little handheld duster on the stairs. He came downstairs and said, “Mom, I’m done.” And I said, “Great. Show me what you did.” And he was like, “Well, I got all these stairs.” And I’m thinking, “Well, there’s a lot of cat-hair tumbleweeds on the stairs still, River.” And he goes, “Well, there’s less. So I’m done.” Right. And I thought, light bulb moment. Of course, just because there’s less he’s like, yes, this looks better. I did it. I did it.

That was such a good reminder for us to do that. But anyway, I was going to say I’ve had clients print out… If you sit with your child for the first few times, especially to help teach, model, teach them what “done” looks like, take a photo of their room, print it off, and then they have that visual as a reminder for, ‘this is what done looks like.’ Because as the saying goes, “a picture speaks a thousand words.”

And it can be hard, especially if there’s neurodivergency, or as they’re still learning. So to have that placeholder literally printed, and maybe it’s on the inside of their closet door or something. Where do the stuffies live? I don’t remember. Where do I put my homework? Things like that can be really, really so helpful. They seem too simple, but that helps adults too, not just kiddos.

Amy: Yeah. We like the organization and structure. I was going to ask you, because I’ve had kids come to me… Sometimes we’re married or have been married to someone that has a different cleaning style or organizational style than we do, and so some of my kids come in and they say, “But when everything is out then I can see it in it. This is better.” I’m more creative in this kind of space or whatever.

So how do we help kids appreciate and understand the value in being able to work from a space that is decluttered? Because they have so much going on. And I feel like school is more pressure than it’s ever been before. Our kids have more extracurricular activities than they’ve ever had before. And then, oh my goodness, we have these little things around that are notifications and emails.

And they’re doing a lot of their school online now. I feel like a lot of them are getting email notifications for this assignment and that assignment, all these things. And if we can kind of help them model how to declutter and organize in in your space, in your house … a very physical thing … almost helps kind of form what that can look like in more of a mental sense than all of the stuff going on that’s less physical.

Katy: So what I’m hearing you say, which is accurate, is helping support our kids with their physical clutter, which impacts mental clutter, which impacts their mental health. Because there’s so much noise in the world. So even though they might think, “I operate better… I like to see all my stuff out,” being able to kind of meet them at a halfway point, where it doesn’t really stunt their creativity or their artistry.

A lot of artists, a lot of creative people do like to see their stuff out, which I totally get. So it’s really about finding a balance and a harmony. I guess I’ll answer your question in a couple of different parts. I think oftentimes, especially as parents, we’re like, “My kid’s room is a disaster. How do I help my kid with the room?”

We want to walk into the room and sit down with them. You can break it into small chunks. We can set a timer. You can start with categories. Those are all great things. But before we even get to that point, I think there’s a couple of things that we could do to help, ideally, improve the outcome and onboard our kids a bit faster.

Number one is to teach them what’s in it for them. Because when we are trying to say, “Decluttering is great, organizing is great, having a cleat room is great,” they’re like, “well, not really. I’d rather be playing Nintendo,” or whatever kids play these days. And so I think, again, having some talking points in mind. And family meetings are a great opportunity to do this. Family meetings have changed my life. We only do them maybe once or twice a month. They just help us be so much more proactive in communication and proactive in solving problems before they happen.

And after problems happen, how do we work through them? How do I help my kid figure out to work through this, whether it’s a home management problem or a school thing? But I digress. So that’s a great opportunity to teach them what’s in it for them.

Going back to what we talked about when we started, connection. What’s important for your child? Connection. Spending time with their friends, maybe going to baseball practice, hanging out with their friends on the weekend. What do they enjoy doing? Maybe art. Maybe they do like spending time in their room.

Well, did you know that a clean room can actually have a massive impact on your sleep? You can improve the quality of your sleep. You’ll wake up feeling more rested, more energized so you do have more energy to do all these sports. I mean, there are so many ways we can tie it into the conversation.

Again, it’s not going to be a magic unicorn and they’ll be like, “Yes, okay, I get it.” But planting those seeds, in ongoing conversations, is a great opportunity.

The second piece to this is inviting your child into a neutral space to declutter with you. “Neutral” being, it’s not their stuff, right? Think about your husband walking into your closet … I have a walk-in closet … Opening your dresser and going, “You haven’t worn this in six months. You’re never going… You’ve had this, what…”

We do to our kids. “You don’t play with the stuffed animal. This firetruck’s old news.” What’s their knee-jerk reaction, even if you’re right? I have to protect all my stuff. This is human nature. If my husband did that to me years ago or even now, I’d be like, “Whoa, back off, buddy. My stuff,” right? So it’s kind of funny. There’s a double standard with us parents and our kids.

“Well, they should be able to let go of the firetruck. They have another one.” So again, that’s the purpose behind teaching them in a neutral space. There’s zero pressure. When I used to declutter my junk drawer in my kitchen for five minutes, while the chili was simmering for dinner, I’d say, “Hey, River, come in here for a minute. Come check it out.” And he’d be like, “What?” And I’d say, “Here are some things I’m decluttering.”

And he might go, okay, and I just explain my process a little bit. “We have 18 spatulas, and I realized I only really need three. So I’m getting rid of X.” And he might… Again, it’s not like it’s going to be the sky parts and the sun come down and all of a sudden… I want to reiterate, these little seeds are great and they build over time.

I can’t tell you how many times, years later … my kids are eight and nine now … and they’re like, “Oh, I remember that time you…” I’ll show them if I declutter a bag of clothes. “Hey, I haven’t worn these. These aren’t serving me anymore. I’d rather give them up to someone who’s going to enjoy them.” Sometimes it’s a statement as simple as that.

Amy: Yeah, I love that.

Katy: It doesn’t have to be this big teaching process. I used the 20/20 rule from The Minimalists: This costs less than $20 to replace. And I can get it in less than 20 minutes if I were to need this in the future. So I’m going to let this go.

These kind of internal dialogues you have when we go through the declutter process. Which is a lot, right? We are loud in our brains. Having a few of those outsides… We were just watching NFL football the other day. The little sports announcers, you’re just sports casting, right? “Oh, this happened. And here’s how that person did that.” And that really, really can make a big difference.

And then, okay, all that to say, a couple of different pieces before we get into the room. Then by that time, they might be able to teach you and they might surprise you. “I haven’t worn these baseball cleats in six months. I think I’ve done playing baseball for a while. What do you think? I’ll add them to my donation bin.”

And that really can be the third piece for your kiddo, in teaching and onboarding them, is having a dedicated spot for them to put their own stuff. So once my kids hit about five, six, I added small donation bins to their closets. Guess what? They do a weekly reset in their bedroom. That’s it. They pick the day, right? So I’m giving them some agency in the matter.

I’m not saying it has to be a certain day. “What day of the week do you want to do your reset this week? Let’s look at our schedule.” And they know how to do their resets. And I will peek into their donation bin about once a month and there’ll be stuff in there. I’m shocked. There’s no nagging. There’s no, “If you get rid of this, I’ll buy you a big toy.”

There’s none of that negotiation process anymore. And it’s a really beautiful thing for my kids. Especially, again, eight, nine, decluttering can be a really hard concept to understand. And this is not just me, by the way, as a declutter expert. My students have also done this too. And I hear it time and time again, their seven-year-old, they’re nine-year-old, they’re 12-year-old, they’re 14-year-old. I mean, their husband; starting to add his things to the donation bin.

Amy: And I love that. That is something I really want to try to do. Because I love the piece you talked about, agency. And sometimes, the thing I’ve done… My family, I grew up moving once for every year of my life. I’d move every like three months or sometimes it’d be 18 months or whatever. And we were moving all the time. My parents would give me two apple boxes from the grocery store and that was my earthly possession. I had to fit anything I cared about, including all my clothes into those two boxes, at least every year. And so I just grew up that way.

And so for me, that was kind of natural. But I was doing probably very much what you were talking about, which was going in my kids’ rooms and being like, “You never use this. You don’t…” whatever. They just have these personal attachments to some of these things so it feels like you’re taking away from them their identity.

And so one of the things I’ve done, I’m curious what you think about this, is I’ll give them a bag and I’ll say, “We have more things than we need. There’s just such a beautiful way to share some of the things that we don’t use anymore with someone else. And so I would just love for you to go and fill up this bag. Can you find five or 10 things that you have loved but they’re not serving you anymore, or you’re not using them anymore, that we could give to someone else so they can enjoy them too? While you’re enjoying your other things.”

Giving them that sense of control and power, I think that changes the experience dramatically. But I love some of the things that you’re talking about in making it more … just having the bin there all the time … where it’s just something they can start to think about constantly.

It’s just so easy and so simple and always on their mind because it’s just there. And every time they think about it, they can just… It makes even less pressure, gives them even more power and more control over it. So that’s something I think I’m taking away from our conversation today that I’m going to do, that I think would be very helpful too. I might put one in my closet. Let’s be honest.

Katy: I have one in my closet as well. And I use it.

Amy: I love anything that’s versatile, because I’m a simplifier. So it’s also a little cat bed for my cat. You know cats… it’s a little box. So it serves two purposes. And he loves when there’s clothes in there, so I’m even more incentivized to make it cozier and add things in there that I no longer need.

Katy: Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah. I’ve got mine in the garage, but sometimes the garage feels like a long way of walk from your closet. I’m going that way. So having them in the spaces, I love that. So that’s, for a multi-level home, having one on each floor, I think, is a no brainer. It’s such a quick, easy win. And again, it’s a gentle reminder every time you see it. That’s why you want it somewhere visible and accessible, right?

You’re walking past a laundry room and you’re like, donation bin. What if I challenge myself? I’m challenging my kids to add five things to this bag. I’m going to set a timer and go to town for 10 minutes, or just find five things. You can do it in seconds.

Amy: So good. Oh my gosh. This has been so great. The time has been flying. We have to be done. I’m like, Oh no. So we want to know more. How do we find you, so we can get more of this information and learn from you?

Katy: You’re too sweet. Well, hop on over to my show, The Maximized Minimalist. I have over 280 episodes at this point. So look for any that resonate. I also have three different sections broken down on my website, for people who are just starting or are focusing on building momentum or are in the later stages of decluttering where it’s really about streamlining systems, routines, habits. So that can be a really great place for them to start. Just go to the podcast section on my website, KatyJoyWells.com. You can decide where you want to go, what podcast episodes most pertain and are specific to you.

Amy: I love it. That sounds amazing. We will put the link in the show notes for all of you listeners, so that you can go find your perfect spot and start from wherever you are. Because that’s what we all have to do, is just start where we’re at and move a little bit and then a little bit more. And it’s just, oh my gosh, it’s kind of amazing, the progress over time.

Katy: Yes. Amen to that. Thanks for having me.

Amy: Thank you so much for coming. It’s been so fun to chat with you. And best of luck with everything going on in your life right now and figuring all of that out.

Katy: Thank you.

Amy: And we’ll end there. This was so good. Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I’m pretty decent at keeping my house. It is not a model home, right? But I got so much out of this though, that I think just these little things will help me, help my kids. Because I feel like I do a pretty decent job in the shared spaces. But in bedrooms, I think it’s where we could do a little bit of work. So I’m excited about this. I think this is going to be really helpful. You’re amazing.

Katy: Thank you so much.

Amy: You’re excited. I did my job well. You’re thinking. I love seeing the wheels spin.

Katy: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate everything. And will you or your team send me a link so I can share it, and all that good stuff?

Amy: Okay. Absolutely. My team will send it when it goes live. We’re booking out pretty far. We have you on the calendar. I don’t have it pulled up exactly right now, but it’ll be in the new year; early in the new year. But I’m not sure exactly which week yet. But we’ll send you an email for sure. Happy to share it.

Katy: Okay. Perfect.

Amy: Thank you so much.

Katy: Thanks, Amy. Have a good one.

Amy: Thanks. You too. Bye.

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Thank you for hanging out with me today for this fun chat on Raising Healthy Kid Brains. If you want to see more of what we’re doing to support kiddos and their amazing brains, come visit us on our website PlanningPlaytime.com. See you next week.